# Boundaries?



## Bumblebean (Apr 25, 2019)

I have a friend who I know cares about me, but when she gets upset with me because something I say or do --unintentionally (!) hits an emotional tenderpoint -- she doesn't seem able to stay on message when she reacts, which she does very emphatically. Instead of just saying what she is upset about, she accuses me of doing it on PURPOSE, of not caring about how she feels etc. Right down to going after my character. 

The problem is I know where it's all coming from (places of deep pain/fear/need for control). The other problem is that she knows MY places of deepest pain, and it's very triggering when she stomps all over them. I bite my tongue because to say anything would just escalate things to the point of no return.

I think she's aware at some level because she soon apologizes, sometimes with words, sometimes with actions.

I know I need better boundaries. When I get attacked verbally I freeze, just like since I was about 3 years old (a long long time ago). I have worked hard for years to recognize and manage my triggers, and I'm happy to say it's been quite a while since they have pushed me into dissociation or harmful behaviours, but it's draining and I feel ashamed that I still can't stand up for myself and that I let myself BE shamed.

I don't know what to do. 99.9% of the time it is a friendship I treasure, though lately I ask myself how it can be a real friendship if I have to walk on eggshells.

Feedback would be really appreciated. I'm getting too old for this nonsense.

🕊


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## Daniel (Apr 25, 2019)

Maybe spend less time with her?:



> Take an inventory of which people in your life leave you feeling stressed and unhappy more often than not. If you don't want to completely remove a toxic relationship, minimize the time you spend together.
> 
> If you don't want to change how often you see each other, recognize drama triggers. When the conversation moves toward her horrible mother, steer it somewhere else.
> 
> How to Minimize Drama in Your Life


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## Daniel (Apr 25, 2019)

Regarding boundaries: 




> We can’t control whether another person will listen to or be interested in our truth, but we can control for how long and with how much energy we will attempt to correct their version of our truth. We can also control how and if we want to continue in a relationship with someone who chooses not to relate to who we actually are.
> 
> In relating with a blamer, some important questions to contemplate are:
> 
> ...


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## Bumblebean (Apr 25, 2019)

At times like this I miss my computer so please forgive if I'm slow to learn this mobile format. 
We don't really spend much time together  ... she's very busy and active while I'm pretty crippled up. She still hasn't figured out why I can't  keep up with her walking and have quit even trying 🙂 On the other hand she's very good at calling and talking at me for an hour. Some days I wonder if I will have to get my phone surgically removed from my ear.

It wouldn't take long to take an inventory of the people in my life, stressful or otherwise and funny thing is most are my own flesh and blood as they say, and while they can get on my nerves or hurt my feelings, it's not all that upsetting. I have a few friendly acquaintances but there's no worries there. (Her Mum was great  .... I was jealous when we were kids. Mine is now long gone, though the nightmares longer on 🙁) 

It seems to me I need to choose between eggshells and stepping back. Listen a lot more and say a LOT less, and never initiate conversation. It's not a happy solution, and I expect it could get pretty depressing pretty quick, but it hopefully can't hurt to give it a go.
🕊


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## Daniel (Apr 25, 2019)

Bumblebean said:


> The problem is I know where it's all coming from (places of deep pain/fear/need for control). The other problem is that she knows MY places of deepest pain, and it's very triggering when she stomps all over them. I bite my tongue because to say anything would just escalate things to the point of no return.



That is great that you are able to "not engage."  I find that is the hardest thing.  As you recognize, it's more about her than you.


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## Daniel (Apr 25, 2019)

Bumblebean said:


> It seems to me I need to choose between eggshells and stepping back. Listen a lot more and say a LOT less, and never initiate conversation. It's not a happy solution, and I expect it could get pretty depressing pretty quick, but it hopefully can't hurt to give it a go.



Never initiating conversation sounds horrible.


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## forgetmenot (Apr 25, 2019)

Hi Bumblebean  just wanted to say i can connect to some of what you have said.  I know it hurts when someone attacks you like that knowing where to hit  not right..   

 This person if she was a true friend would never ever go there ever knowing how much pain it caused you. 

 I know it is your decision  but for me i would stay clear keep yourself safe ok.  

You should not have to walk in fear really of being triggered .

  I would tell her outright if she hurts you that way again then it will be time for you to walk away.

  It is not alright to think actions or words can undue harm done to you if she is your friend she will treat you like a friend and stop hurting you .

  I hope this makes sense  i am sorry that she triggers you and i hope you can keep yourself in a place of peace ok  not in  place of trauma.


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## Bumblebean (Apr 25, 2019)

Daniel said:


> Never initiating conversation sounds horrible.



It does sound kind of sad, but I rarely need to unless I have a question or important news. Our phone conversations go something like this:
She: so how you doing?
Me: still breathing (people almost never want to hear that i'm discouraged, frustrated by limitations, or in pain so bad i'd like to break something)
She: well that's a good start. 
.... At which point she switches to a highly detailed recap of her day (or days), covering everything that happened and how she felt about it. 
If I call her, I rarely get past "hi" before she spends an hour telling me why she's too busy to talk  😃


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## Daniel (Apr 25, 2019)

And if you interject yourself into the conversation, she eventually gets triggered by something you say?


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## Bumblebean (Apr 25, 2019)

Daniel said:


> Regarding boundaries:



It took me a while to get through that article ... very glad I read it! Thank you 🖒

As briefly as I can:
What got her upset was that I interrupted her. Didn't mean to derail the train of thought, but I did. (I know her well enough i really ought to have been aware that she was dealing with a lot of "stuff"). And I apologized. She didn't react except to act like she was shrugging it off  but my sinking stomach warned me  .... partly.
When I saw the email i knew it wasn't going to be pleasant but better to get it over with.
 Here's the thing: I believe she had every right to be ticked about my having interrupted her. I get tired of people doing that to me. If she had said "I was really upset/hurt/whatever when you interrupted me" it would have been right to apologize again and validate her feelingd, but that was only the opening salvo, followed by guilt-trips, negative comparisons ... me getting the failing grade compared to her... accusations, and slashing away at my character and how x, y, and zed that happened over two years ago were my fault. When she had chosen not to take seriously my concerns about a certain matter only to find that if anything, I had understated the problem (don't  like being called a drama queen so I often do understate), she said she hadn't believed me because of "all the times" I had "cried wolf". Then she implied I was a liar because I had mentioned something that she found hard to believe. I was able to stand my ground on that last one. Told her I had never lied to her and didn't plan on starting now.

Very helpful article! I think I'm going to find a way to get it printed out.

I think it would be impossible for me to put into words why I don't just block and walk. We have such a long history I wouldn't know where to begin.
🕊


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## GaryQ (Apr 26, 2019)

Seems like a complicated friendship. Your friend seems to project the image of a “the world revolves around me and my feelings and yours don’t matter” kind of person.

Boundaries are important and if she’s a friend she’ll bock, choke and probably get upset if you stop her in her tracks and tell her something is no longer acceptable or tolerable but if she’s a true friend she’ll eventually come around to reason. Important thing about boundaries i learned while the kids were growing up is that it doesn’t matter how narrow or wide they are but that they be consistent and clearly set.

Hope things work out for you


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## Bumblebean (Apr 26, 2019)

Hi forgetmenot. Thanks, you totally make sense, and i agree with pretty much everything you say. I have just been letting everything sit in my mind and get themselves organized. That's usually the best... to just get out of own way for a while ☺ I tend to over-think things and then my emotions run away with these things and I'm right back where I started. It's like a jigsaw puzzle  ... When I stop looking for that one piece, that's when I find it. 
Does that make sense to anyone but me? 🤗

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Daniel said:


> And if you interject yourself into the conversation, she eventually gets triggered by something you say?



Usually she just gets bored and discovers she's very very busy. In those lonnnnnnng phone calls there's usually less risk of her getting upset. You know ... she stops to take a breath and I slide in with a "speaking of ____", which stays in the general area of what she's been talking about. Those have blown up in my face a couple of times, like maybe twice in 30 years.
Lately if I see her name on the call display I tell myself to just listen and make a few sympathetic or interested noises. If she asks my opinion, I give it .... very carefully and cautiously 🙄

Oh yeah,, after the apology I ran into her grocery shopping. I was diplomacy on wheels ..... spook careful to say little and listen much. It was kind of sad because most time we would just chat, maybe joke about something, but this time I felt like I was on trial. Next day she said she enjoyed our chat. Said I seemed much more positive  (gooood doggie 🐶 ).
If it wasn't so said I've laughing til my stomach hurt.

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GaryQ said:


> Seems like a complicated friendship. Your friend seems to project the image of a “the world revolves around me and my feelings and yours don’t matter” kind of person.



Now that you mention, pretty much. (That seems to be the way she is with most people.) She's in so many ways a good, almost obsessively moral, and dedicated person. She puts herself 200% into everything she does and is rightly respected for all she does. She's very passionate about certain issues and IMO doesn't know when to take a break from pouring her life into them. A few years ago i suggested to her that maybe she could think of herself more as a human *being* than a human *doing*. She's no dummy. She had no trouble picking up the concept, but before long she was saying yes, she would have to WORK on that then rushed off to buy half a dozen zen-ish self-help books (scream). There are a lot of similar instances, but I would feel I was breaking a confidence to talk about them so I'll leave it at that.
I think most people can get preoccupied with their feelings, their wounds, their needs (I know I do) the trouble is when we lose perspective .... like "my thoughts, beliefs, and feelings are more important than anyone else's." I know all her wounds and fears, and that makes it difficult to confront this attitude. She does need to get the message, but I don't think it would or could be me to deliver it. Someone will one day, though.

 In the meantime I think i need to step lightly while I finish sorting through almost 50 years of mostly-good but some episodes of really-awful bad. 

It's weird that in so many aspects of life I have learned to create boundaries I'm comfortable with ... e.g. "if you have been drinking, don't ring my phone or knock on my door" (with my family) and (also with my family), "politics are not open for discussion" 😔 (where did I go wrong? 🤔 )

Those things are so simple ... Kind of one-issue, as opposed to the massive can of worms who on a good day doesn't hesitate to call me her best friend (which I may well be, if that doesn't sound a lot like blowing my own horn). 

I have blathered on enough for one day, I think. 💕 Thank you everyone ... I am so grateful for all the thoughtful and thought-provoking feedback 💕
🕊



> Boundaries are important and if she’s a friend she’ll bock, choke and probably get upset if you stop her in her tracks and tell her something is no longer acceptable or tolerable but if she’s a true friend she’ll eventually come around to reason. Important thing about boundaries i learned while the kids were growing up is that it doesn’t matter how narrow or wide they are but that they be consistent and clearly set.
> 
> Hope things work out for you


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## Bumblebean (Apr 27, 2019)

I didn't lie awake last night (yay me!) but my sleeping mind must have been working overtime. My first thought this morning (after "ugh, morning again" &#55357;&#56861; ) was 

       *i am tired of being afraid*

I have spent 62 of my 65 years being afraid. Not of physical things (except bears and spiders and wildfires) but of the next time someone's going come at me out of left field to go on at vitriolic length about what a massive piece of &#55357;&#56489; I am, how manipulative, insensitive, how lacking in compassion, how I spend so much of my life figuring out how I'm going to "play gotcha" (to borrow a phrase from my mother)  .... etc. 

It's not just the words, it's the venom in those words, it's the injustice. Whyyyy is it so hard for people to ask me to clarify something I said that came out wrong or sounded wrong to them, or just *tell me* what is bothering them. Why is that so hard? 

Why do people use something that might have happened in the past like a weapon? As if something they didn't like happened in 1972 and they raise it in 2019 like it proves a point.

Anyway, this morning I realized I always  get a bit anxious over prolonged silences. Is she simply too busy? Has she gotten bad news? Or is she working on that next email I don't want to read. Given how lonnng a phone call can drag on, I really shouldn't waste energy fretting over silences &#55357;&#56900; 

Today I feel so done. If she's so determined to push-and-pull me every which way, I don't want to play.
&#55357;&#56650;


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## David Baxter PhD (Apr 27, 2019)

If I've learned anything in my life it's that nobody needs toxic people in his/her life.

It's not just hard on you emotionally. It directly affects your health in multiple ways. It would not be an exaggeration to say that toxic people are "killing you slowly" by reducing your life span.

Here are the questions to ask about friends, neighbors, coworkers, even family members:



what positive things does this person add to my life? things like joy, amusement, entertainment, love, peace, support, genuine friendship, an ear when I need one
what negative things does this person add to my life? stress, anxiety, sadness, depression, hurt, anger, verbal abuse, walking on eggshells

If the negatives outweigh the positives, time to move on. If the net effect is to add stress to your life, time to move on.

Even if you consider this person to be your one "friend", it is better to have no friends than that toxic "friend.

Also, it's like a bad relationship: as long as you are putting energy into trying to cope with the toxic friend, how much energy and time is left over for you to develop more mutually respectful and satisfying friendships?


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## Daniel (Apr 27, 2019)

And the rub:  It's possible you aren't even helping your friend either, except in the short term.  e.g. If people who are selfish in relationships get away with it, how are they motivated to develop whatever empathy they have? 

Similarly, there's a psychologist/author who says she wishes all narcissists were put on an island to deal with each other


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## Daniel (Apr 27, 2019)

From an interview with that psychologist:



> Narcissism is very much viewed as a disorder of sort of inflated self-esteem and grandiosity. It is those things, but in fact, it’s a disorder of self-esteem. People with narcissism are often the most insecure people in the room and they’ve established a way of showing themselves as anything but – that they often look like the most confident person in the room but there’s an emptiness there.
> 
> I often say there are sort of four pillars to narcissism. Lack of empathy, grandiosity, a chronic sense of entitlement and a chronic need to seek out admiration from other people and validation from other people. Those really create the core of that disorder. And then that’s coupled with this sort of inability to regulate self-esteem – that sense of always peddling faster to get the regard of other people. And has even been viewed very much as a disorder of attachment – that inability to make deep, intimate, connected and phatic ties to another human being...
> 
> ...



Not to say your friend is a narcissist, but it can be a way of framing the situation.  One of the ways I understand narcissistic traits is that it is like the person is addicted to something that takes precedence over relationships/attachments/intimacy, e.g. money, status, objects that convey status, drugs, etc.   In fact, that is how narcissists can be developed, e.g. things other than human relationships are used to compensate for a lack of intimacy with (or nurturing from) parents.


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## Bumblebean (Apr 27, 2019)

That entire post is going to be saved and re-read often. 

What you said about how toxic relationships can affect health really hit home for me. As I have mentioned way too often, chronic pain is a part of my world, though thankfully most of the time I manage ok. I also have some cognitive problems which are worse when pain and/or stress levels are high.

 This whole issue began on Sunday (21st) . Since then, my pain and cognitive difficulties have gone through the roof. I can't blame this one person for all of it because, apart from the fact that I have allowed this abusive behaviour to go on, I tend to forget that self-care is necessary, no matter how frustrating it can be to take the time needed. I wouldn't purposely do something that would set me back (though at times that's unavoidable), so I really do need to ask myself why I volunteer to allow anyone to cause me a week of pain and set me onto zombie mode.
Wow .... I have no idea if that made any sense. I hope it did.

Thanks again ...

🕊

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Daniel said:


> And the rub:  It's possible you aren't even helping your friend either, except in the short term.  e.g. If people who are selfish in relationships get away with it, how are they motivated to develop whatever empathy they have?



Excellent point!



> Similarly, there's a psychologist/author who says she wishes all narcissists were put on an island to deal with each other



I don't know if that's a great visual or a horrifying one, but it sounds like a great idea to me 😄

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Daniel said:


> From an interview with that psychologist:



She is almost tragically lacking in self-esteem. Almost everything she does seems yet another way to feel she's "good enough". Even those negative judgements and comparisons speak to me more as an aspect of desperation than a surplus of self esteem. It's as if she feels even less adequate if someone says or does something which she interprets as lacking in respect, which i'm guessing is why she goes into attack mode. When she's relating the details of her day or week to me, she often stresses the positive reactions she gets from people. It's like if i hear it, that makes it more real  ... more validating (?) .... for her. 

I just remembered: not so long ago she had hit an emotional wall. She came to my place and when she had talked herself out, it struck me that she was very fragile emotionally. I said as much, adding something about people not seeing that part of her. Fortunately I was well stocked with tissues. Maybe that's why she needs to be smarter, stronger, more capable and competent, etc. I guess most people want to be valued, but it's as if she only really exists in the eyes (and validation) of others? Ouch my brain hurts.

Anyway  ...

I was raised by a narcissist with a fondness for high drama and massively grand gestures of the worst kind. This ... friend (?) ... is nearly as skilled as my mother was when it comes to knocking me off my feet but i feel it comes from a different place. That's not too clear but it's the best I can do.

Thanks 

🕊


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## David Baxter PhD (Apr 27, 2019)

Bumblebean said:


> I was raised by a narcissist with a fondness for high drama and massively grand gestures of the worst kind. This ... friend (?) ... is nearly as skilled as my mother was when it comes to knocking me off my feet but i feel it comes from a different place. That's not too clear but it's the best I can do.



That is precisely why you are susceptible to her manipulations, @Bumblebean ... and why it is so importyanty for you to protect yourself.


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## Daniel (Apr 27, 2019)

Another endorsement for "No Contact":  



> It may take years, decades or a lifetime before the cumulative effect of all the separate, small episodes of verbal narcissistic abuse hits us. But when it does, kaboom! That's the day we go No Contact.
> 
> What Happens To People In Relationships With Narcissists


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## Bumblebean (Apr 27, 2019)

@David Baxter (I hope I did that right) ... 

So basically I am programmed, or self-trained, to accept/tolerate/excuse those behaviours?

Annnnd ... I just remembered that we were in our teens when she recognized what I hadn't: that our ... my mother's and my .... relationship was so very not-normal. She saw how easily I could be "managed". I'd bet money she isn't conscious of the connection, but it ends up playing out the same. I'm still in that "you're so evil/you're so wonderful" house of mirrors.

I suppose I should be angry and loaded for bear, but all I feel right now is tired and very, very sad. 

🕊

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Daniel said:


> Another endorsement for "No Contact":



As the scales fall from my eyes ...

🕊


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## David Baxter PhD (Apr 27, 2019)

Bumblebean said:


> @*David Baxter* (I hope I did that right) ...
> 
> So basically I am programmed, or self-trained, to accept/tolerate/excuse those behaviours?



Yes. But you can change that by becoming more aware that you do tolerate and excuse those behaviors and then more alert to them to resist continuing the cycle.


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## Bumblebean (Apr 27, 2019)

David Baxter said:


> Yes. But you can change that by becoming more aware that you do tolerate and excuse those behaviors and then more alert to them to resist continuing the cycle.



At this point I think I'm very aware. I have bit my tongue and made excuses for a long time, but this was different  ... I should say I perceived it differently. Maybe it was the extent and variety of assaults on my character along with everything else. Especially being accused of lying. Put altogether it felt eerily as if it was my mother talking.

The logistics of creating a safe distance are going to be a challenge; I guess it will be a case of dealing with whatever presents itself in turn. With so many knotted strands to untangle, it's going to be a long haul.

🕊


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## Daniel (Apr 27, 2019)

By the way:   How to Dump a Toxic Friend | Time


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## Bumblebean (Apr 27, 2019)

That negative, stressed and depressed friend (in the article) could have been me, more or less, 30 years ago. I'm glad most people were willing put up with me.

I have a few "downer" types in my life but they don't *get* me down. Maybe because it's safe to be honest. I can't "fix" them, but at least they know someone will listen, hear, and care.

And yes, to some extent that's an issue here. Sometimes she has literally rescued me  ... e.g. from being homeless.  She recognizes that she's a "fixer"; I recognized too late that during some very bad times when she "fixed" some aspect of my life in those times, I was so caught up in my worries that I failed to see i was boxing myself in. There have been people in my life to whom I am grateful. And then there are those to whom I am beholden. Beholden sucks


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## Bumblebean (Apr 29, 2019)

But I am not going to let it trap me.

Took a small step today  ... playing every moment by ear.
🕊


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## Bumblebean (May 1, 2019)

Small things are adding up, but at this point it feels a lot like slowly owning it, if that makes sense.
🕊


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## David Baxter PhD (May 1, 2019)

It makes perfect sense. I know what that feels like. And I'm happy to hear you are getting there.


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## Bumblebean (May 1, 2019)

I was so tangled up in a mess of conflicting emotions I forgot that the times in my life when I have made positive changes was when things finally got quiet inside. Kind of like when training a horse ... no point going anywhere near til my head shuts up enough to "hear" the animal ☺
Side note: is it my mobile or has the format changed?


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## David Baxter PhD (May 1, 2019)

I like the horse analogy. Well put.



Bumblebean said:


> Side note: is it my mobile or has the format changed?



I've made no recent changes to the site or the server but there are several weather conditions in various parts of Canada and the US that may be affecting connection speeds. Sometimes when this happens, certain scripts or images don't fully load, especially with mobile connections which tend to be slower to begin with.


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## Bumblebean (May 1, 2019)

Thanks. I didn't realize there were so many things that could affect the look of a page or site. I'm very non-tech, (computers ok, mobiles not so much)so i have a lot to learn.&#55357;&#56650;


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