# Why do I do this to myself?



## gooblax (Aug 21, 2007)

I thought this might fit into this category... Sorry if it doesn't.

At times, I seem to deliberately insult myself. I repeat these insults to myself, and notice what makes me feel worse. Then I keep doing that. I've written insulting messages on paper, sent them to myself by email or pm... Sometimes I even ask others to insult me, usually suggesting it in a joking manner (they don't, though).

It really appears that I want to make myself miserable - I don't really try to stop. When I have tried to think 'I'd never say this to anyone else, so I don't deserve it either,' or replace the insults with compliments or even with something neutral, I just build up all the insults and associated feelings until next time.

This only occurs sometimes. Other times... it varies. It's worse when I'm tired.
It usually only lasts for a few minutes, and an hour afterwards I've (usually, if I have a distraction) forgotten. But during those few minutes... it's certainly not doing me any good.

Anyway, if anyone has any suggestions/answers...
Thanks.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 21, 2007)

There may be several reasons for this but in general I have noticed in your posts here that you are very self-critical, very quick to put yourself down, very quick to take offense, and very quick to dismiss yourself and your problems as trivial and not worthy of anyone's attention.

I wonder where this comes from. Are these messages someone else has conveyed to you in the past in some way? That you are a bother or a burden to others? Or that you demand too much attention, that you are too needy? From a friend or family member perhaps, or from peers at school? Are you often ignored or left out of things among your peers? I suspect that exploring these questions may give you some clues.

See also Becoming Thick Skinned.


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## gooblax (Aug 22, 2007)

Thanks Dr. Baxter.

"The world doesn't revolve around you."
I hear that from my parents on almost a weekly basis. The reason being that I am selfish - I don't help with things, don't do dishes, don't cook meals etc. I feel no desire to help with those things, and usually decide that I have schoolwork to be doing instead (but don't often end up doing that, now). I don't seem to be capable of sympathy, to my knowledge. Or if I do, I don't recognise it well. I don't feel as if I care about others, despite realising that I should. I feel guilty for not sympathising, but that's as close as I seem to get. And I suppose that's one thing that brings on the self-criticism - I'm selfish.

However, I do try to keep in mind that things are "not all about" me - nothing ever is. When it comes to other people's decisions, anything to do with me is not a factor, and quite rightly shouldn't be. If someone does something I find inconciderate, it's not because they "don't like me" or whatever, it's because my existence does not matter to them in the slightest, making them one less person that I have to think about when I finally get the courage to do away with myself. Of course my "problems" are trivial - it shouldn't matter to anyone else that some sniveling, self-centred snob is feeling sad (or exaggerating that they feel sad, and pathetically seeking sympathy for something that isn't even a problem) because they hate themselves (or are fabricating the whole self-hatred thing) but are too conceited to change anything.

Anyway, to answer your questions... (presuming you actually wanted answers... If you were just asking to get rid of me, then by all means don't bother to read another word.) The main thing I can think of is how at school 2 years ago, the group of friends I was with all spoke English as a second language, so would have most of their conversations in Chinese. Since I couldn't understand a word they were saying, I asked them to speak in English a couple of times, but they hardly bothered to do so. I gradually learnt to sit there and amuse myself, doing nothing a lot of the time. It's not like I would have had anything worthwhile saying anyway. Even when I could understand them, I barely said anything. The group I was with before that would talk about things I wasn't interested in, so I had nothing to say before that anyway. Anyway, that lasted about half a year, until another person who couldn't speak Chinese came and would speak to them in English, so they made the effort for her - or she made them, whatever. Half of them have left school, so my friends always speak English now, while I still sit around saying nothing. I respond when asked a question, sometimes add in a side-comment or two, but I wouldn't call that "conversation." I don't think of things that I'd like to say, and feel no need or desire to make myself think of anything. I don't know what people talk about other than clothes/shopping, movies, tv, other people, school and things they've done, and most of the time I haven't seen the show/movie (and wouldn't know what to say about it anyway), I don't like or care about shopping, I never do anything interesting, don't enjoy talking about other people who are not present in the conversation, and people don't believe me if I say that I've been screwing up everything to do with school. 

The side-comments that I do make, often seem to annoy people - I relate things that they've said to schoolwork. 
(eg. the conversation previously: "Is taro the only purple vegetable?... Red cabbage is purple..." 
me: "and can be used as an indicator for acids." 
the result: groans, water splashed in my face [since I'd made other science comments earlier])

Apparently, moping around, looking tired and not saying much is "attention seeking." I've worked out that the best way to go about things is to pretend to be 'normal' but stay quiet, gradually cut things off but not too noticeably... and eventually no one will remember me. Then I can put an end to it.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 22, 2007)

> I hear that from my parents on almost a weekly basis. The reason being that I am selfish - I don't help with things, don't do dishes, don't cook meals etc. I feel no desire to help with those things, and usually decide that I have schoolwork to be doing instead (but don't often end up doing that, now). I don't seem to be capable of sympathy, to my knowledge. Or if I do, I don't recognise it well. I don't feel as if I care about others, despite realising that I should. I feel guilty for not sympathising, but that's as close as I seem to get. And I suppose that's one thing that brings on the self-criticism - I'm selfish.



That description would probably be applied to a lot of young people in your age range. Things like planning, empathy, inhibition, etc. - the so-called executive functions - are the province of the frontal lobes which are still very much continuing to develop through adolescence and into the 20s.



> (presuming you actually wanted answers... If you were just asking to get rid of me, then by all means don't bother to read another word.)



There's that self-criticism and hypersensitivity to rejection again.



> Apparently, moping around, looking tired and not saying much is "attention seeking." I've worked out that the best way to go about things is to pretend to be 'normal' but stay quiet, gradually cut things off but not too noticeably... and eventually no one will remember me. Then I can put an end to it.



And all that will have accomplished what exactly?


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## gooblax (Aug 22, 2007)

David Baxter said:


> That description would probably be applied to a lot of young people in your age range. Things like planning, empathy, inhibition, etc. - the so-called executive functions - are the province of the frontal lobes which are still very much continuing to develop through adolescence and into the 20s.


Someone says they hurt themselves - oh. Someone says they are feeling upset - oh. I see someone crying - oh. Someone says they were recently physically assaulted - oh. Someone says their mother was just diagnosed with brain cancer - oh. Someone says their cousin just died - oh. That kind of reaction is just not acceptable! After watching a video about malnourished children in Africa, one student had to go home because they were crying too much. Another was feeling sick. I never saw the video, but I can sure guess my reaction - oh.   



> There's that self-criticism and hypersensitivity to rejection again.


It's quite possible that you didn't want an answer, though.



> And all that will have accomplished what exactly?


I won't have to be concerned that I don't feel concerned about the effect of my suicide on others, because they won't even consider it.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 22, 2007)

You have barely begun to live your life and you are thinking about ending it. That doesn't tell you that you need to be in some form of treatment for this?


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## gooblax (Aug 22, 2007)

Thinking, yes. Going to do so - not likely. I'm a coward. I allow set dates to pass with barely a reproach. Inaction and procrastination.

I've recently started therapy, but the therapist is interested in relationships, family history, and weird concepts that I've never thought about. I don't feel like she's interested in any of this kind of thing. Next session (although I've been saying this for a while) I'm going to make a list of stuff and just hand it to her. If she won't address that, then too bad for her. She knows that I've had suicidal thoughts, but didn't ask for specifics, so I didn't provide them. 

Thanks Dr. B.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 22, 2007)

That sounds like a good plan. If this therapist isn't helping, there are others who can. It does sometimes take a bit of trial and error, just as it does with medications, to find the right match.


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## ThatLady (Aug 22, 2007)

> I won't have to be concerned that I don't feel concerned about the effect of my suicide on others, because they won't even consider it.



Gooblax, this statement stood out for me. It's in direct conflict with what you have said about yourself, whether you recognize it, or not. You presented yourself as someone with no feeling for others; yet, in this one sentence you absolutely prove that not to be the case. If it were, you wouldn't have a care what effect your actions had on someone else. You do care, Gooblax. You're not the hopeless, selfish monster you portray yourself to be.


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## gooblax (Aug 23, 2007)

ThatLady said:


> Gooblax, this statement stood out for me. It's in direct conflict with what you have said about yourself, whether you recognize it, or not. You presented yourself as someone with no feeling for others; yet, in this one sentence you absolutely prove that not to be the case. If it were, you wouldn't have a care what effect your actions had on someone else. You do care, Gooblax. You're not the hopeless, selfish monster you portray yourself to be.



Thanks ThatLady, but I still see it as "caring that I don't care." I know I should care about the feelings of people who care about me, therefore I modify my actions to suit.

Although I do care that my course of action may require (I'm not entrily sure of the legalities) my family to pay a substantial amount of money (that they cannot afford) in compensation to the affected organisation/s. I'm not going to make them pay for that.

Anyway, thanks to you both.


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## Into The Light (Aug 23, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Although I do care that my course of action may require (I'm not entrily sure of the legalities) my family to pay a substantial amount of money (that they cannot afford) in compensation to the affected organisation/s. I'm not going to make them pay for that.



i don't understand this statement here. what do you mean by this?

you're not an evil, selfish, horrible monster. you're a teenager who very likely is suffering from depression. when depressed, all we end up doing is thinking about ourselves and about being depressed. nothing else is of interest. this can come across as selfishness to others, but it's not. it's just that we're stuck inside our heads and there is no room for much else.

i've been there too, been ignored when i tried to say something in the group, the people that were supposedly my friends. it doesn't help much.

your parents may also not realize that you are depressed when they make statements that you are selfish. it's hard to read teenagers and to know what is normal teenage behaviour and what is not.

you're suffering. when we contemplate suicide this means we're in pain. talk to your therapist about what's going on, because you are in pain. if you don't feel like she can help address things, you may need to talk to someone else. do this. you're worth it. therapy is there to help you heal.


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## gooblax (Aug 24, 2007)

_<triggering details removed>_ 

Pseudo depression, pseudo sufferring, pseudo pain, real selfishness. That's the only explanation I can see. How else do you explain a mood that changes almost hourly to one of: neutral, angry, happy, 'empty,' irritable, stressed, sad, calm, jumpy, or a strange 'get-me-out-of-here' feeling? (Rhetorical question, by the way. But it took a while for me to identify that... and of course the pattern will change now that I think I've identified it.) Anything else - I'm sorry, I've probably managed to fool you somehow. I think I must just be after the attention. That's a thought confirmed by my mother, anyway. That, and the selfishness, for which I deserve to be in pain, if that's what it is.

Anyway, I'm sorry. Thanks for your reply.


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## Into The Light (Aug 24, 2007)

> How else do you explain a mood that changes almost hourly to one of: neutral, angry, happy, 'empty,' irritable, stressed, sad, calm, jumpy, or a strange 'get-me-out-of-here' feeling?


gooblax, that sounds like depression to me. i recognize the feelings you describe. i hated it. i am sure you hate it too. i am well now and what a world of difference.

if you aren't expressing to your therapist what's really happening inside then it's hard for him/her to help you. 

as for this being just all about attention, so what if it is? the way i see it, if someone is asking for attention they need attention. to be honest, i think you're right in asking for it. you need attention from the adults around you that you are not okay, and you need help to be okay again. talk to them. have a heart to heart. tell them how hard things really are and let them help you.


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## gooblax (Aug 24, 2007)

Thanks ladybug.

And sorry Dr Baxter - I tried to keep the explanation minimalistic. Looks like I failed. I won't be posting anything of that nature on the forum again. In fact, if I can prevent myself, I won't be posting anything at all on the forum again.

Bye everyone, and thanks for the help.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 24, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Thanks ladybug.
> 
> And sorry Dr Baxter - I tried to keep the explanation minimalistic. Looks like I failed. I won't be posting anything of that nature on the forum again. In fact, if I can prevent myself, I won't be posting anything at all on the forum again.
> 
> Bye everyone, and thanks for the help.



There's no need to leave, gooblax. We do ask that our forum members try to be aware of potential triggers but that's also why we have admins and moderators - to monitor such potential triggers.


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## gooblax (Aug 24, 2007)

I can't even follow a simple set of rules.
And if I don't have any sort of problem, and am just going to go around planting landmines, then I have no business here.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 24, 2007)

gooblax, once again you are taking things way too personally. The moderators and admins at Psychlinks routinely monitor posts for triggers and edit them as I just did with yours. You are certainly not the only one.

Honestly, I urge you to try to find a copy of David Burn's _Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy_ or _The Feeling Good Handbook_. This will help you with things like overpersonalization and hypersensitivity.


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## gooblax (Aug 24, 2007)

In no way do I believe it was a personal thing - it was completely justifiable, and I'm aware that it is common practice. I am simply ashamed by the mistake (especially when I was consciously attempting to keep the description within limits). That puts into question my skills as a writer, and as my own personal moderator (which I've failed at being an iimmeasurable number of times in the past 2 years). I do not wish for a similar thing to occur in the future, but, knowing me, I'll screw things up a thousand times before really learning a lesson. It is, however, my responsibility to ensure that I do not make such mistakes, and there's only one sure way to ensure that.

But anyway, I'll see if I can find the book. Thanks.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 24, 2007)

> knowing me, I'll screw things up a thousand times before really learning a lesson



I believe that's called "being human". We all do it.


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## Into The Light (Aug 24, 2007)

i hope you don't leave us, gooblax. you seem like a nice person who could use a little support. we're here for you any time.


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## Peanut (Aug 24, 2007)

Hey gooblax, try not to be so hard on yourself.  You didn't do anything wrong.  I seriously wouldn't worry about the editing, it's really no big deal.  Look at all the people who are trying to help you here and focus on that.  Everyone is over critical of themselves, but that doesn't necessarily mean that other people are holding you to the same impossible standard you are holding yourself to.  Give yourself a little slack.  I always think it's ok to think about what went wrong, maybe analyze it, then move on...dwelling never helps anyone feel better.  Moral of the story: don't sweat the small stuff, it will all come out in the wash anyway.


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## gooblax (Aug 28, 2007)

Unfortunately for everyone reading this, I'm still around for the moment.

Just wanted to say that I gave a list about my altering feelings to my therapist, who read through them, asked a few questions and made some suggestions and comments, suggested that I look into antidepressants, and then got on with what she had planned to do (early memories and family stuff).

Anyway, thanks Dr Baxter, ladybug and Arose.


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## forgetremember (Aug 28, 2007)

gooblax said:


> "The world doesn't revolve around you."
> I hear that from my parents on almost a weekly basis. The reason being that I am selfish - I don't help with things, don't do dishes, don't cook meals etc. I feel no desire to help with those things, and usually decide that I have schoolwork to be doing instead (but don't often end up doing that, now). I don't seem to be capable of sympathy, to my knowledge. Or if I do, I don't recognise it well. I don't feel as if I care about others, despite realising that I should. I feel guilty for not sympathising, but that's as close as I seem to get. And I suppose that's one thing that brings on the self-criticism - I'm selfish.



Hi Gooblax!  I think the world DOES revolve around you.  Think about it.  Often times, folks will throw the clich? "the world doesn't revolve around you" as a shut up treatment.  My hope is that you become thick skinned in a constructive way albeit your self-beating is a continuum of whatever maltreatment you've been exposed to thus far in perhaps a miserable attempt at becoming "tough" so as not to feel pain.  Being tough as tanned leather will keep the world out, the good and the bad, whereas becoming "thick skinned" as per David's post "Becoming Thick Skinned" allows you to take in the good and bounce off the bad.  Worth the read and please stick around this/our community of high Emotional Quotient folks. 

Blessings,

Jos?e


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 28, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Unfortunately for everyone reading this, I'm still around for the moment.



I would say that's fortunate, not unfortunate. 



gooblax said:


> Just wanted to say that I gave a list about my altering feelings to my therapist, who read through them, asked a few questions and made some suggestions and comments, suggested that I look into antidepressants, and then got on with what she had planned to do (early memories and family stuff).



How did you feel about the reaction of your therapist?


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## gooblax (Aug 28, 2007)

Thanks Jos?e - I liked your explanation, not least because it reminds me of the osmotic membranes that I'm studying in chemistry. (I have a bad habit of relating everything to schoolwork, especially science, so I won't go into a detailed explanation of that...)

In regards to my therapist's response, I felt it was alright, but I'm worried that my list sounded too serious or was accidentally exaggerated. I should have said the relative strengths of each mood in different situations (even though I have trouble judging that) because I don't have any idea what normally constitutes any of that. (eg. how sad is "sad"? Even if it changes at different times, or feels dull but still sort of there... I can't rate it on a scale, because I don't know how to compare it, and in comparison to someone else, what I've described as "sad" would be their version of elation if they have real problems...) Anyway, the therapist's response may have been appropriate for her definitions of the words I provided her with, but I don't even know what my definitions are, or what the appropriate response would be to them, even if I could express myself properly (or without unintentionally exaggerating, at least).


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## Mari (Aug 29, 2007)

H! I often think that there needs to be a system for measuring an individuals pain level whether it is physical, mental, or emotional. Every person is different and responds individually to the particular situation. It would help me a lot if I could explain my level of distress better but I try not to think or feel that I am inadequate because someone else doesn't understand. Somehow we just have to keep trying. :heart: Mari


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## gooblax (Aug 29, 2007)

*nods* I know someone who believes that everyone will instinctively rate their "most distressing" experience at a specific number out of 10, and has developed a reason for this (since he doesn't agree with the academically proposed reasons). If everyone's going to rate their experiences as the same number, then obviously there's some internal moderation that stuffs things up for "scale of 1 to 10" ratings. I swear, feelings are impossible!


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## forgetremember (Aug 29, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Thanks Jos?e - I liked your explanation, not least because it reminds me of the osmotic membranes that I'm studying in chemistry. (I have a bad habit of relating everything to schoolwork, especially science, so I won't go into a detailed explanation of that...)



Glad you liked my metaphor Gooblax.  I have a visual brain so i hope i painted a clear picture.  Hope you find some eye-opening info reading David's post "Becoming Thick Skinned".



> In regards to my therapist's response, I felt it was alright, but I'm worried that my list sounded too serious or was accidentally exaggerated. I should have said the relative strengths of each mood in different situations (even though I have trouble judging that) because I don't have any idea what normally constitutes any of that. (eg. how sad is "sad"? Even if it changes at different times, or feels dull but still sort of there... I can't rate it on a scale, because I don't know how to compare it, and in comparison to someone else, what I've described as "sad" would be their version of elation if they have real problems...) Anyway, the therapist's response may have been appropriate for her definitions of the words I provided her with, but I don't even know what my definitions are, or what the appropriate response would be to them, even if I could express myself properly (or without unintentionally exaggerating, at least).



If your therapist didn't ask for a rating, why worry about it?  I find this rating approach confusing myself.  If i must rate my feelings on a scale of 1 to 10, i do so in relation to the intensity of previously experienced emotions i've had at any point in time throughout my life.  I avoid the self-conscious rut of trying to answer in comparison to "the norm".  What is normal!  Imho, therapy is subjective...in other words, "it's all about YOU", not Tom Dick and Harriette. 

Blessings,

Jos?e


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## gooblax (Aug 29, 2007)

Well, I'm sick of me. I don't trust myself, I'm not doing anything to help myself, I'm just looking for answers and solutions from other people. I know I'm not going to get that, but I still keep trying for it. In these circumstances, therapy doesn't have a chance. Even if I was somehow magically able to find out what my actual concern is, I'd be looking for someone else to fix it for me. I won't try to help myself. With that attitude, I'm getting nowhere, and never will. 

Thanks Josée... but... yeah.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 29, 2007)

gooblax said:


> I'm not doing anything to help myself, I'm just looking for answers and solutions from other people.



Actually, that IS doing something to help yourself. That's what most of us do when wqe have a problem or a decision to make.



gooblax said:


> In these circumstances, therapy doesn't have a chance. Even if I was somehow magically able to find out what my actual concern is, I'd be looking for someone else to fix it for me. I won't try to help myself. With that attitude, I'm getting nowhere, and never will.



Again, that's why people go to therapy... to get help in identifying goals and problems or issues and to have the therapist guide you in trying to "fix" or address those identified issues.

The real attitude you need to worry about - and this may be your first priority in therapy - is your automatic reaction of negativity, pessimism, and defeatism. It comes through in pretty much every one of your posts.

Were you able to find a copy of the David Burns book I mentioned? I'd be surprised if your local library or bookstore doesn't have it but I'm also sure you could pick one up at Amazon or eBay.


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## gooblax (Aug 30, 2007)

David Baxter said:


> Actually, that IS doing something to help yourself. That's what most of us do when wqe have a problem or a decision to make.


However, the result of asking others is supposed to be the formation of one's own ideas. Others can't just hand me an answer, especially when I don't even know the question. Therapy may provide guidance, but the rest is up to the individual. In my case, the individual is not sufficient. I don't seem to be willing to make changes, or put in any sort of effort - I appear to be too glad to have an attitude of "oh poor me, let's sit here complaining while doing absolutely nothing to change anything."

To be honest, I haven't tried to find the book. I never go shopping, or to the library, and I don't have a credit card to order one online. I would have to ask my mother to find the book for me (lazy, huh?), but I don't want to bring up the subject with her. Just one example of how little I do to try to help myself. (Also, I don't have much patience with CBT stuff when I'm actually thinking about things...)

But thanks anyway.


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## forgetremember (Aug 30, 2007)

Hey Gooblax, you sound depressed. When i hit the dips on the roller-coaster of life, i change gears so i don't break down. If you ever drove a stick shift motor vehicle in the wrong gear going up or down steep hills, you learn by the noise the transmission makes that you need to shift.

I compare my body and mind to a motorized vehicle. When my thoughts are racing, I shift to physical activities (exercise regimen) and avoid junk food and toxic people (including my family at times) until my brain gets into the correct gear and i feel the juice (motivation) circulating through my body and soul.

When more complex problems arise and my backyard mechanics don't work, i take my machine to the pros. 

Take care,

Jos?e


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## gooblax (Aug 31, 2007)

But to continue your metaphor, my particular 'motor vehicle' is still completely roadworthy. Why bother the pros with my small dent in a side-panel when others have leaks in the cooler piping, a shattered windshield, or crumpled hood? And economically, it's not viable to try fixing a cheap rubbish model. Everyone's more interested in the Ferrari or Lexus - they're the ones worth getting repaired.

But here I go, yet again, making arguments to support my inaction, rather than accepting a point as applicable in my situation.

I'm sorry everyone. I don't think I have any right to say anything until I'm prepred to do something.


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## forgetremember (Aug 31, 2007)

Hey Gooblax, glad to hear it's just a dent.  It's what's under the hood and what goes into the gas tank that matters. 

I'm driving through the Rocky Mountains at this time of year... I hope to reach the Pacific Ocean safely.  Done the trip before...it's breath taking!

Keep on trucking, 

Jos?e


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## Into The Light (Aug 31, 2007)

> I don't think I have any right to say anything until I'm prepred to do something.



can you explain why you think this?

it seems to me that sometimes we need a bit of time to work things out for ourselves before we are ready to take action. part of working things out is talking to others.

i think you _want_ to do something about what's going on with you, but maybe you don't know how, or maybe you're afraid. or maybe, despite wanting to do something about it, it's still easier to just not do anything. that's how it works with depression. it's easier to "give up" than to work at it, as many of us here can attest to. does that make you a horrible person if this is what's keeping you from taking action? not at all. it makes you a human being like the rest of us.


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

The expression of negative feelings means nothing if the subject of the complaint is not going to change. In this case, I appear to be the subject of the complaint, and therefore if I do not change, then there is no point in continued whinging. So if I (the one presenting the complaint) have it in my power to alleviate the perceived problem, yet choose (for whatever reason) not to do so, all the while still complaining... no one needs people like that in the world. 

Maybe I do want to do something about myself - but if I actually did want to, then I think I would have already tried. Since I have not been trying to any substantial degree, then I must not want to change all that much.

I don't know why I have not been taking action, but lazyness seems to be the best explanation. For example: I'll read a self-help text if it's shoved in front of me, but if I have to make the slightest effort (eg. find that David Burns book), I don't do it. At least other people would try. I just try people's patience, until they realise that I'm not worth the effort.

Thanks ladybug and Jos?e.


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## forgetremember (Sep 1, 2007)

Gooblax, if your "lazyness" is not causing you or others to suffer, you are free to park your car in your own garage.   

I'm a firm believer that "if it ain't broken, don't fix it".  Imho, lazyness proper is not a mental health problem, but a learnt behavior.  Behind every lazy person there are always enablers which establishes a co-dependent dynamic. 

I have met my share of lazy people and i don't expect them to be just like me. Since i like to keep busy, i wouldn't want anyone stopping my mobility just as a lazy person doesn't want others forcing them to take the high road (unless he or she is illegally parked).

Again, my emphasis is on whether the "inactivity" is causing suffering.  If it doesn't, no problem; if it does, the complainant(s) will eventually take action; it's called survival.

If i practice giving free rides to anyone able to walk, they might get too fat and become handicapped which would make me partly responsible for creating a disability and partly responsible for fixing it.

Live and let live!

Jos?e


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks Josée.
Well, I'm certainly not pleased with myself being lazy.

In another (just as pathetic) thread on this forum, I've stated how I've stopped doing schoolwork, or study. I got my worst exam results in the past three years (I can't recall what I used to get before that), my ranking in the class has dropped (from first or second in most of my subjects). My parents have been hassling me about the work I should be doing, the work I know I could do if I'd try, the work that I had been doing before but just can't make myself do anymore. 

I hate myself. When I started feeling 'less-than-happy,' I thought everything would be okay, and it didn't matter as long as I kept going alright at school. As long as I kept working to my standards, then feelings didn't matter. They could be dealt with during the holidays, or on days that I don't have work to do. I never used to have to deal with emotions - never even had to think about them. But now I can't even do my homework, because I'm so lazy that I don't try to do it. I'm not bored with the work - I actually find some of it quite interesting. Yet I still won't do it. However, in exams, I can make myself work, even if I get worse results becuase I haven't done enough study. So I'm obviously not trying at all.

This laziness is something that I need to fix... am I too lazy to fix it? Probably.


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## Into The Light (Sep 1, 2007)

i see you constantly putting yourself down. you keep calling yourself lazy and pathetic. i think that by putting yourself down you are hoping to motivate yourself into action, to do better, but it's simply not working. instead it's just making you feel worse.

it makes sense when you think about it. if someone else is constantly telling you you're no good, lazy, and pathetic, do you think you will feel good about that and then as a result change your behaviour? no, if someone else is constantly telling you how awful you are, you're going to feel badly. when you feel badly, why would you want to do anything?

i have typically found that once i start to feel better about myself that i then am much more motivated to improve myself or to do better in certain areas of my life. i then have positive energy! it's much easier to do well at studying and exams when all is well.

continuing to tell yourself how lazy you are and how pathetic you are is only going to be counterproductive. here's something you can try. take a pen and paper, and write down ten times in a row something positive about yourself. do this maybe first thing in the morning, once in the day and once at night. even if you don't believe this nice thing. do this for two weeks and see how you feel then. maybe what you write down is "i am a smart person" - something you clearly are because you relate things to science (and never mind all the negativity you seem to get from your friends each time you relate something to science, because it's just not their thing. there are plenty of people out there who like that sort of thing, you just haven't met them yet).

i hope this wasn't too long a post but i just had a lot of things that came to mind. give the positive writing exercise a try.


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

I'm not smart, I just used to do okay in exams. Then I have no imagination outside school, so things just naturally relate to it.

But thanks ladybug. I'll attempt to try to do that, if I can think of anything positive about myself.


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## Into The Light (Sep 1, 2007)

you said your ranking used to be first in class. if you don't think that makes you smart, what would? does this mean all your other classmates are not smart either (after all, they didn't score as high as you)


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

I just used to be lucky, in that I could cram information and remember it for a few hours. There are people who consistently achieve results that are close to my previous marks. They have not stopped trying. Some of these people don't do much study at all, and yet are a challenge to beat. These people are smart, not me. If they did study, they'd be doing even better. Much better than I was doing before, and certainly much better than I am doing now. 

And this is just within my year at one particular school. Now think about another school... in fact, any school in the whole country; in terms of everyone who is my age anywhere in the world, at this moment, or those who used to be, and those who will be... Countless numbers of people who are thousands of times "smarter" than I am. I am nothing - never have been, and never will be.


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## Into The Light (Sep 1, 2007)

countless people may be smarter than you are, however, there are countless people who aren't as smart as you. you might not be an einstein but you're not stupid either. do you agree with that?

in the end, we all have different qualities and skills. i'm always in awe of other people whom i consider much smarter than myself. but when i stop to think, there are things i am capable of that they aren't! they are smarter in certain areas, but not in others.

that's the thing about people. everyone is unique, and everyone has things they are very good at and other things they can't do as well. overall, do the things they aren't capable of make them any less worthwhile as human beings? do the things they are capable of make them more worthy? how do you determine what skills or qualities make one person "better" than another?


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

I realise that I am not entirely stupid, but I'm pretty darn close. The only things that I can remember being half-decent at, were cramming info. and writing in assignments. Nothing else. Now I'm too lazy to study/cram or to complete assignments well. I don't have other areas of things that I'm good at. I'm always the reverse of that statement - I may appear to be okay at something (only "okay" - I'm not "good" at anything), but there are so many other things that I have no skill at, that it doesn't matter at all.

Others are capable of doing things. I can see that other people have plenty of skills from so many different areas, and that all of them are worthwhile. Then I see myself for the scum that I am.

I'm sorry for whinging, I'm sorry for arguing, and I'm sorry for wasting your time, but thankyou ladybug.


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## Into The Light (Sep 1, 2007)

you aren't wasting my time at all gooblax. if i didn't want to have this conversation with you i wouldn't. 

i think you're in the grip of depression and it's incredibly difficult to come out of it. the depression is making you feel the way you do, as being worthless and no good. i've been there. there was nothing good about myself. i felt as you do right now. guilt for not doing the things i was supposed to be doing. angry at myself for being that way. angry at the world. worthless, hopeless, sad, in pain, or at other times just numb, not enjoying things, not being able to feel much of anything, not caring.

you aren't going to be able to just snap out of what you're going through. it's just not that simple. it'll take you a while to recognize that what you are thinking and feeling is a result of depression rather than a result of your character or your perceived faults.

the way to break this vicious cycle you are in is medication and therapy. therapy alone will not be as helpful. once you get started on the medication and it starts to work, and you continue with the therapy, you will gradually start to feel better and your sense of self-worth will return.

i've been where you are and i promise you you can get well and feeling normal again.


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## forgetremember (Sep 1, 2007)

gooblax said:


> I hate myself. When I started feeling 'less-than-happy,' I thought everything would be okay, and it didn't matter as long as I kept going alright at school. As long as I kept working to my standards, then feelings didn't matter.



Here seems to be the crux of the problem.  When our engine is flooded by emotions, it can keep us paralyzed in confusion, like being stalled on a freeway.

I hope Gooblax you realize you're not stranded.  On this stretch of the freeway (right here) there are good samaritans willing and able to help.  Some are backyard mechanics like myself and others are A1 licensed mechanics who want to help you troubleshoot free of charge. 

Can i ask you to describe what happened when your machine "started feeling 'less-than-happy,'"?

Thanks.

Jos?e


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## David Baxter PhD (Sep 1, 2007)

gooblax said:


> *I hate myself.* *When I started feeling 'less-than-happy,' I thought everything would be okay, and it didn't matter as long as I kept going alright at school. As long as I kept working to my standards, then feelings didn't matter.* They could be dealt with during the holidays, or on days that I don't have work to do. I never used to have to deal with emotions - never even had to think about them. But now I can't even do my homework, because I'm so lazy that I don't try to do it. I'm not bored with the work - I actually find some of it quite interesting. Yet I still won't do it. However, in exams, I can make myself work, even if I get worse results because I haven't done enough study. So I'm obviously not trying at all. This laziness is something that I need to fix... am I too lazy to fix it? Probably.



Look at that first statement in the quote from your post. Then consider it in the context of the sentence that follows. These are the key points.

You're not lazy. You're trying to find a way to love yourself and to feel that others love and admire and accept you. You've tried to do this through external achievements, looking for acceptance and reassurance from others. It hasn't worked, or at best it's worked only partially. You still are left feeling that you are not loved or accepted for who you are but only for what you do. You still don't love yourself. The strategy has failed you. And therefore it's getting harder and harder for you to work up any enthusiasm for continuing to put effort into a strategy that isn't making you feel any better.

This should be your number one priority in therapy: Why is it you don't love and accept yourself? Why is it that you need external validation so badly?

Here's two exploratory self-awareness exercises you can do - no books to buy and no-one else to involve, just you:

Developing Insight into Self-Concept

Insight into Feelings

And I don't want to hear that you're too lazy to do these... by now, that's become a self-fulfilling prophecy and a self-definition for you. This isn't about laziness. It's about an underlying fear that no matter what you do no one will ever love or accept you and you will never love yourself. It's about how you have defined yourself and I think you're near or at the point where you are clinging to the notion of "I am lazy" like a lifeline. I also suspect there's more than a hint of fear of failure in there too - if I just stop trying, I can't fail any more.


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## gooblax (Sep 1, 2007)

Thanks very much ladybug, Josée and Dr Baxter.

I'll respond properly when I've finished the two assignments due tomorrow (one of which I have not started). I figure I should get that done as a matter of urgency, and am not intending to be impolite by delaying my reply.
Thankyou.


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## ladylore (Sep 2, 2007)

I agree with Ladybug,

All the counselling in the world wouldn't cut the depression I was feeling out. The antidepressents have helped tremendously and as given me a fighting chance of that darkness.

Just keep going and keep talking.

Ladylore:hug:


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## gooblax (Sep 3, 2007)

I can't shake the impression that speaking about "things" with people is a really bad idea for me, and for others. Nor do I feel I deserve to speak to people, or to get help. Selfishly enough, that's the part that my actions are contradicting at the moment.

My mum doesn't want me to take medication. I don't really want to either... I don't really know. It would kind of make things 'official'... whether that's good or bad...



> Can i ask you to describe what happened when your machine "started feeling 'less-than-happy,'"?


I dunno, nothing. 

I started doing the exercises, but I don't know how to do them. I'm guessing that I'm in the wrong sort of mood to do them, because I'm just looking at the words and thinking of single-word answers. I can't seem to pull off the specific points at the moment. 

Many thanks to all of you.


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## Into The Light (Sep 3, 2007)

> My mum doesn't want me to take medication. I don't really want to either... I don't really know. It would kind of make things 'official'... whether that's good or bad...



i think you really need to discuss this with your therapist. i think most people react this way when medication is suggested, and it can feel frightening. i know i was afraid of the medication and i tried to stay away from it and tried to cope on my own. it didn't work. i got sicker instead of better. i am not trying to frighten you but this could have cost me my life. don't dismiss the idea of medication. if you had a heart condition or diabetes you would have to take medication too. it's the same thing. 

talk to your therapist about your doubts, about your mother's doubts. i think this is very important.


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## gooblax (Sep 4, 2007)

Thanks ladybug.

Both my doctor and therapist have decided to give me a couple more weeks to see how I'm going before re-suggesting medication. One of my main concerns at the moment is that I've just been exaggerating everything, and that I'm really quite okay. It's so... subjective... and when I can't trust my own opinion, how can I give an accurate account?

But nevermind. Doesn't matter much.


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## gooblax (Sep 9, 2007)

I've started reading Feeling Good: The New Mood Therapy. It is better than the CBT book I'd read earlier, but I just get frustrated reading it. I just think that it will never help me because I won't make the effort to do anything. Other 'reasons' why it wouldn't help are addressed in the book, but this is a real reason. I know that change takes work, and I simply won't do the work. Infuriating? Yes, tell me about it. Take a swipe at me... hit me... go ahead. I'll try not to flinch.

I am absolute crap. Therapy isn't going to help me because I'm not willing to let it. I won't try to help myself, and am in fact trying to do the opposite. With the insults I repeat to myself, I am actually trying to make myself feel bad. I deserve to feel bad, and in my opinion am not feeling 'bad' enough. In fact, I have never felt "bad enough" about anything. But I deserve to feel like crap, especially if I'm going to be complaining about how I'm feeling when it's not even that bad (and I don’t even know what it is!). I've never felt really bad, but that's what I deserve. Instead, I just feel irritable, or my mood changes to something else, or I feel neutral or something. But I should be feeling like crap because I'm a crap person. And then most of the time I don't even know what I'm feeling... just... irritation, without thoughts. Then I become angry at myself for being irritated without reason, and start insulting myself again. Nothing happens, really. The insults usually don't change my mood, other than make me more annoyed that they aren't working. Perhaps I don't have good enough insults. Can anyone suggest any? I'm serious, because if I can't even insult myself properly... damn. On very rare occasions, it seems to have a little effect - I start feeling like I'm internally shaking (but I'm not actually moving), and get a bit dizzy, and have to put a bit more effort into breathing (and I start checking to make sure I'm not having a stroke... *weirdo*). That's only happened 3 times, all while I was trying to get to sleep. The best one for that is variations on "you're ****ing going to fail." (I insult myself in third person.) But anyway, that reaction is rare, and most of the time there isn't a real reaction. I hardly notice any sort of difference. And the worst part of it is that I can't even get angry enough to hit myself... I just sit there at an 'almost angry' agitated state.  

However, all of this is quite beside the point - I'm so stupid that I want to make myself miserable! I don't particularly want to be miserable (I don’t think, although maybe I do), but I deserve to be, and therefore should be. I don't have real problems, my only problem is myself, and I'm too crap to do anything about myself. Worse still, I'm prepared to make endless complaints about this state of affairs to anyone within a virtual keyboard-length. So on top of the rest of that, I'm an annoying, whinging, forum-lurking ****. And I'm wasting my parents' money on a therapist, when I am the problem and could change things if I wanted to. But I don't want to, not really. If I did, I wouldn't be trying to make myself miserable, would I? Not that I'm all that good at making myself sad... I can't even get that right. 

What I certainly do not deserve is any sort of assistance, or support, or help, or for anyone to care at all about me. I don’t even deserve to have posted this. (And what about my "I'm not posting anything for a week"??? ***ING FAILURE!) But guess what, I did anyway. And why? Because I’m selfish. 

I can appreciate that no one wants to hear another word from me, ever. Tell me that, and perhaps I'll actually accept that properly, and leave everyone alone. I apologise for being such a pest, and continuing to be a nuisance. Seriously, I'll shut up if you ask me to. Or at least insult me a bit. Maybe I'll get up the motivation for suicide, with a bit of help. Do the world a favour, and remove a bit of the trash. Please.


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## Into The Light (Sep 9, 2007)

wow gooblax, that's quite the tirade against yourself. you say you don't feel much and that your insults aren't working to make you feel worse. i think you ARE feeling miserable but that you're minimizing it.

this statement really stood out to me:


> Therapy isn't going to help me because I'm not willing to let it.


do you know why you are not willing to let it? what would it mean if you let therapy help you?


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## gooblax (Sep 9, 2007)

ladybug said:


> do you know why you are not willing to let it? what would it mean if you let therapy help you?


Probably because I know I deserve to feel worse than I do now. Therapy is supposed to be helpful or whatever, and is thus counterproductive to feeling worse, which I seem so eager to attain.


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## Into The Light (Sep 9, 2007)

so you are saying you want to feel miserable. why is that? take a long and hard look for the answer, and be honest with yourself. this is also a question you don't have to answer here, but answering it for yourself may provide you with some insight.


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## gooblax (Sep 10, 2007)

Well by now everyone knows how much I seem to enjoy posting, so unfortunately I'm going to post my ridiculous attempt at an answer. I encourage you to pay absolutely no attention to anything I say, but thankyou ladybug for your previous replies. 

Possibilities for why I want to be miserable:
For attention - so I have something to talk about (I'm a very boring person who has very little to say aside from making a complaint about myself); because I'm lonely; because I want people to care about me; so I have something to complain about...

Because I want the punishment that I deserve - other people are miserable, so I should be as well; and I don't really seem to care how others are feeling, and won't try to help them, and sometimes can't do anything to help them, and no one would want me to help them even if I could and wanted to, because there's always heaps of other people who would do a better job; because the world is full of crap and bad things happen to everyone and I don't care, and therefore I am insensitive, selfish and should therefore be punished; other people are punished or reprimanded for their wrong behaviours (by others or by themselves) yet I experience neither to an appropriate extent; because the only time I seem to care about someone is if they mean something to me and if I stand to lose something from their suffering; because I DO care about all of that, yet don't do anything about it! I am an undeniably horrible person who deserves continual suffering, to be isolated from everyone with no chance to complain...

Other thoughts - at least when I'm sad I can't be quite so angry with myself, I can just allow myself to stay sad or try to make myself feel better...

I don't know if any of these are the correct answer. I don't have a clue. I'm pretty sure about the solution though. 

Seriously, just ask me to leave and I will. Sorry everyone.


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## Into The Light (Sep 10, 2007)

> For attention - [...] because I'm lonely; because I want people to care about me; [...]



even negative attention is attention - you mentioned before your relationship with your parents isn't very good. maybe underneath it all you feel that if you lived up to everything they expect of you, you would lose any attention you get from them? that maybe if you were to start feeling better, you'd lose the attention too?

you want to be loved and cared for, we all do. there is nothing wrong with that. but remaining depressed isn't going to make you feel loved. by definition, depression makes us feel very unloved, even though people do love us. so to feel loved, you have to work at feeling better, at getting well again.



> Because I want the punishment that I deserve - other people are miserable, so I should be as well;


your logic doesn't hold. why would a person's being miserable mean YOU have to be miserable too? it just doesn't make any sense.



> and I don't really seem to care how others are feeling, and won't try to help them


depression makes us stop caring about a lot of things. it's part of the disease. you need to help yourself first before you are able to help others. 



> and sometimes can't do anything to help them


that doesn't make you a bad person if you don't have the means to help.



> and no one would want me to help them even if I could and wanted to


are you absolutely certain of this? is this really true for every single person you know out there?



> because there's always heaps of other people who would do a better job;


that doesn't mean your job would be a lousy job; your help would still be useful. any help is better than none.



> because the world is full of crap and bad things happen to everyone and I don't care, and therefore I am insensitive, selfish and should therefore be punished;


i think this is emotional thinking happening here. depression makes us focus on ourselves, and it's very difficult to think of others. not that that's an excuse or that it means you don't have to try.



> other people are punished or reprimanded for their wrong behaviours (by others or by themselves) yet I experience neither to an appropriate extent;


i sometimes do things i'm not proud of, but i don't punish myself. what i'll experience is regret, wishing i hadn't done it, and this in turn motivates me to do better next time when a similar situation comes along.



> because the only time I seem to care about someone is if they mean something to me and if I stand to lose something from their suffering; because I DO care about all of that, yet don't do anything about it!


then get going and do something, anything, however small a gesture it may be.



> I am an undeniably horrible person who deserves continual suffering, to be isolated from everyone with no chance to complain...


no one deserves continual suffering.



> I'm pretty sure about the solution though.


so am i, and it's not what you've got in mind. the solution is to be honest with yourself and your therapist, and get to work on getting out of this depression you're suffering from.


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## ThatLady (Sep 10, 2007)

Are you lonely, Gooblax? Do you find yourself without friends with whom to spend time doing things that are fun? Getting attention through negative means works in a way, but it's a never-ending cycle because the attention you get has no real quality, so you're always searching for more. It's a vicious circle.

You say that everybody is miserable. Sorry, but that's just not true, Gooblax. I'm not miserable. I'm a happy, healthy, friendly, productive person. I enjoy life and living it. You can, too, but you have to put out the effort. Sitting around saying "I can't get better because I won't do anything to help myself" is a self-defeating statement and, in your case, you're making it a truth. You *can* get better, but it's going to take effort. Complaining isn't going to do it. Get up, get out, and do something. The onus is on you, Gooblax.


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## gooblax (Sep 11, 2007)

I don’t really care about my relationship with my parents. They can do what they want and as long as it doesn’t affect me, I’m fine with it. (I acknowledge that from their perspective, it may not be as they would like, but as we all know by now, I’m selfish so don’t care all that much.) I don’t like the kind of attention that I’m getting from them now, and would rather that they had no idea about how I was feeling, so they wouldn’t irritate me about it. I don’t want attention from any of my friends, and certainly don’t seek it from them. I’d rather avoid most people and not speak to people, but I swear it’s impossible to find a place where I’m alone at school.

The only attention that I would say that I was after was attention from a guy I used to like (back when I used to speak to him, that is), or now from strangers on the internet.

Yes, I’m lonely, but I only feel that way after loosing a person who I want to speak to. I don’t have any desire to spend time with my friends outside school (maybe because they don’t “get” me, or understand what I’m trying to say to them, or share my interests… presuming that I have things to say.) Normally I don’t notice being lonely, except when I have no one to complain to. 

In fairness, no person should have to suffer greater than another. Evidently, life is not fair - theoretical probability does not hold, theoretical morals do not hold, law is arbitrary, and rules are not absolute. But some sort of balance is usually maintained, so if others are miserable, it is only a matter of time before an individual themselves becomes miserable. If one somehow has previously been able to avoid misery, then it will come to them. It is now my turn to make up for all the time that I have not been miserable. That makes perfect sense to me.

I believe that my ‘regret initiator’ is broken, because it doesn’t work to the extent that it should: not enough to motivate change or to make me learn from the mistake/wrongdoing. 

Now that that particular mood has passed, I can see that my complete unwillingness to try to help myself is temporary. I’m still lazy, but sometimes I am slightly motivated to change myself. I guess that “sometimes” and “slightly” is better than not at all. 

Thanks ladybug and ThatLady. I really do appreciate your help. It’s a shame that I couldn’t have been a better person when I met everyone here.


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## gooblax (Sep 15, 2007)

I've returned to my empty/tired mood, where the main thing I want to do is nothing without thinking (so no intentionally repeated self-insults at the moment). I've been reading David Burns' book, and some of it seems like it would be quite helpful IF I'd try it. I've sort of tried to try... which makes little sense. For example, I have difficulty with the exercise of identifying 'thinking errors' and making a rebuttal, because often my following thought will be "it doesn't matter, I'm crap," and I won't continue from there. (Or I'll get to "What is it about me that brings me to that conclusion - everything, I'm rubbish rubbish rubbish," and that will be the end of that.) After that, I have no desire to attempt to do anything about it.

Another of the hardest things about it for me, is attempting to ignore emotion while still trying to help myself. I was so used to ignoring emotion, but by dismissing everything. Then I started trying to identify emotions... So now I notice them but am supposed to ignore them without berating myself for having them...? I dunno, it's in conflict with everything that I know how to do.   

Don't worry, I'm really not expecting any sort of reply - I know you're all bored of this whinging. Unfortunately for all, I feel the desire to post this rubbish regardless. Sorry.


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## forgetremember (Sep 15, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Don't worry, I'm really not expecting any sort of reply - I know you're all bored of this whinging. Unfortunately for all, I feel the desire to post this rubbish regardless. Sorry.



Hey Gooblax, don't apologize for venting, that's a good thing.  I can whine and dine too. 

Blessings,

Jos?e


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## Into The Light (Sep 15, 2007)

well, you _are_ trying, and that's definitely a step in the right direction. i'm proud of you for doing it! :yahoo:

these exercises aren't easy at first, and it takes some time and practice to get the hang of them. the trickiest part is when you start to try and then you hit a point where you think it's pointless, and then you stop. that is the biggest challenge and you are just going to have to work to make yourself try anyway. i had help from a therapist when i was trying to do this stuff so it might be something you want to work on together if you aren't already. speaking of which, how is therapy going for you?


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## gooblax (Sep 16, 2007)

Hmm. Thanks guys.

I still don't understand what my therapist thinks I'm supposed to be getting out of my sessions with her. She doesn't do CBT so I'm reluctant to mention it. The main thing she seems to be concerned about is how my studies are going - essentially, if I can get that back in order, then not much else matters. Anyway, my mum says that she won't pay for therapy after the reimbursement ends in about 4 weeks time. *shrug*


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## Into The Light (Sep 16, 2007)

what kind of a therapist is your therapist? is she a psychologist, social worker, or something else? 

when you say she doesn't do cbt, do you mean she isn't doing it with you, or it's something she doesn't offer?

have you told her you do not know what she thinks you're supposed to get out of it all? that you feel that the focus is in the wrong place, on your studies rather than on your depression? i think you mentioned a week or two ago that everyone was going to see how you felt in two weeks time before revisiting the medication issue, has it been revisited?

gooblax, i think it is really important that you are honest with yourself about how you are feeling and that you are honest with your parents, your doctor, and your therapist. you cannot get the proper help if you don't communicate with them. if you feel therapy isn't working because the focus is in the wrong place, you need to tell your therapist. otherwise you just won't be getting any better. these people are there to help you, and they need to know if what they're doing is effective.


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## gooblax (Sep 17, 2007)

My therapist is a psychologist. She does psychodynamic therapy (something about identifying unconscious motivations...), but I don't know how that's supposed to help, really. I think if I paid more attention, I'd be more likely to actually remember what she said each time. I don't know if she offers CBT. I guess I should just ask, but... I dunno.


ladybug said:


> have you told her you do not know what she thinks you're supposed to get out of it all?


Nope, I haven't. I probably should... but again, I dunno.

The focus of our sessions isn't on my study, presuming that there is a focus... I'm not quite sure what it is on, since I tend to forget most of it. (Yes, that's how great I am in verbal communication - I don't remember any details of what is said.) But what I meant was from my therapist's statement that her main concerns with me are the possible suicide risk and the effect that stuff will have on my end-of-year mark at school. I won't be attempting the former, so the only concern is the latter. So really, if I make a decent effort to study and get decent marks, the rest is irrelevant.  



> i think you mentioned a week or two ago that everyone was going to see how you felt in two weeks time before revisiting the medication issue, has it been revisited?


Yeah, my mum is still against it. She would rather I tried exercise, different diet, "more vitamins," more family activities, more socialising, St John's wort, going back to a naturopath, or having another thyroid test (at a different pathology) before medication. I still wonder if any of my whinging is valid or truthful (or if I'm just making the whole thing up), so I'm disinclined to consider medication. 

Being honest requires one to acknowledge and express one's perception of the 'truth', does it not? However, if one cannot be sure of the quality of one's own perceptions - if they can't even identify the subjective truth for themselves - honesty becomes impossible. 

If I'm attempting to be honest about this, I don't know how I'm feeling, I don't know if it's any worse or better than how others normally feel, sometimes I don't know if it is any worse or better than I used to feel, and how I feel changes so I can't even identify it properly. I don't know if I'm lying about how I'm feeling for attention. 

But I do know that I probably should never have said a word about it. I do know that I'm seeking comfort from people who are unable or unwilling to give it (because I simply don't have that kind of relationship with them), and that I don't feel anything (other than irritation) about comfort from those who are able or willing to give it (family or friends). And I think I should just shut up and accept things for how they are.


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## David Baxter PhD (Sep 17, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Yeah, my mum is still against it. She would rather I tried exercise, different diet, "more vitamins," more family activities, more socialising, St John's wort, going back to a naturopath, or having another thyroid test (at a different pathology) before medication. I still wonder if any of my whinging is valid or truthful (or if I'm just making the whole thing up), so I'm disinclined to consider medication.



1. you could talk to your psychologist about this and get some input there to pass on to your mother; or

2. you could print out some of the articles here (Alternative Medicine and Alternative Therapies forum) about how many of these home remedies are ineffective and/or dangerous.


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## Into The Light (Sep 17, 2007)

> So really, if I make a decent effort to study and get decent marks, the rest is irrelevant.


i disagree. school and marks are important, however, if you were to obtain the decent marks, would that magically fix everything else for you?


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## gooblax (Sep 18, 2007)

Of course it wouldn't "fix" things, but the things themselves must be irrelevant. We're not even sure that there's anything to fix (other than this whinging itself). I'm not nearly as important as I might like to think I am, so what does it matter if there are things affecting me that aren't going so great (things that I should be able to rectify)?

Thanks Dr Baxter - I'll take a look at some of the articles and see if I want to show them to my mum (though I don't know what I hope that will achieve). 

But yeah, I really don't know what to do. It's like there's everything and nothing to do, at the same time. At least there might be a purpose if there was some consistency. I dunno... *sigh*

**** it. We’ve been through this: I shouldn’t be saying anything or whinging about anything when I have nothing to complain about! So why am I even typing? Why won't I just shut up? Damn.
I’m crap, so for your own sake, please don’t listen to me.


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## gooblax (Sep 19, 2007)

I'd like to make yet another apology for my immature behaviour. I know I often say stupid things, and I'm sorry about all of them.

Thanks everyone for your help. It was great meeting you guys.


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## Mari (Sep 19, 2007)

> I know I often say stupid things



I can relate to that gooblax - I could fill a book with stupid things I have said. Why do I focus on the stupid things I have said so much? Other people say dumb things but seem to just brush them off and not even care. The best I can say is that I am a 'highly sensitive person' as mentioned in another section of this forum. I apologize when I can although I do not think you need to keep apologizing. The people here are not here to judge you but to offer any help they can. This forum has so far been a great help for me. I like the mood manager because it helps me focus on how I am really feeling - it puts a stop to some of the confusion and the constant thinking and worrying about everything. My song for today is 'Over and Over' by Nana Mouskouri, not because it is real for me but because it offers hope that things can and will be better. Please do not give up - rest a bit and then try again. :heart: Mari


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## Into The Light (Sep 19, 2007)

> We're not even sure that there's anything to fix


of course there's something to fix. you're miserable. you talk down to yourself. you feel like you deserve punishment. you're lonely. you feel unloved. those are major things. they need to be fixed.


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## gooblax (Sep 21, 2007)

It doesn't matter to anyone other than myself whether I feel miserable or not, so there's no real necessity to fix any of that. Sure, it would be nice to change that, but I should be able to put up with it. There are millions of people who have more serious 'stuff' - they need the help before I do. I feel guilty for not having to suffer when so many others, who are better people than I, do. 

The biggest problem (for me) with the stupidest things that I say is that they occur at a time when I really want help/support, but are counter-productive to that cause. For example, if I'm feeling lonely and really want someone to talk to, I'll say that no one should talk to me because I'm boring/annoying/(any other appropriate adjective), I don't deserve to have anyone to talk to, no one would want to talk to me etc. (things that I believe). Resultantly, people do not speak to me (wow I wonder why!) and become offended. If I don't say these things, then I believe them regardless - I'll avoid speaking to prevent myself from saying them and because I don't think I should bother people. And by "speaking," I mean "typing," not that I have anything interesting to say in either sense. The result of attempting to challenge the thoughts as per cognitive therapy is "Doesn't matter," and return to moping.

Each time I write a post on a forum such as this, I wonder if I really should post it. Should I annoy others with my whinging about nothing? How many more chances are people going to give me before they decide to ignore me? Is it better to anticipate that result and not say anything? If I put the time that I spend complaining into study, then at least that would be one less thing to feel guilty about. My teachers think I'm "bored." I rarely feel bored, just can't make myself concentrate. But I can't even start to explain that to them; I just put on a nervous little smile and say "something like that," to everything they say.

But yes, there goes another set of ramblings that people don't want to know about.
Thanks for replying Mari and Ladybug. It's appreciated.


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## Into The Light (Sep 21, 2007)

gooblax said:


> It doesn't matter to anyone other than myself whether I feel miserable or not, so there's no real necessity to fix any of that.


so it doesn't count if it seemingly doesn't matter to others? you're the one that has to live with your thoughts and feelings. this is YOUR life.

i'd like to point out that it matters to me whether you are miserable or not. i may be a total stranger but the thing is, i've lived through depression and i believe 110% that no one should have to suffer that. i want others to be spared that pain, and that includes you.



> Sure, it would be nice to change that, but I should be able to put up with it. There are millions of people who have more serious 'stuff' - they need the help before I do.


by this logic that would mean that i don't deserve help with some of the issues i am still struggling with, because i know that i am definitely feeling a whole heck of a lot better about myself than you are feeling about you.



> I feel guilty for not having to suffer when so many others, who are better people than I, do.


you have this belief that some people are better than others. what criteria do you go by?

would you feel better if you actually suffered as badly as some people do? what about people who aren't suffering as much as you? or aren't at all? do they deserve to feel miserable? do you see how you are applying one set of rules to the rest of the world and another to yourself?



> The biggest problem (for me) with the stupidest things that I say is that they occur at a time when I really want help/support, but are counter-productive to that cause. For example, if I'm feeling lonely and really want someone to talk to, I'll say that no one should talk to me because I'm boring/annoying/(any other appropriate adjective), I don't deserve to have anyone to talk to, no one would want to talk to me etc. (things that I believe). Resultantly, people do not speak to me (wow I wonder why!) and become offended. If I don't say these things, then I believe them regardless - I'll avoid speaking to prevent myself from saying them and because I don't think I should bother people. And by "speaking," I mean "typing," not that I have anything interesting to say in either sense. The result of attempting to challenge the thoughts as per cognitive therapy is "Doesn't matter," and return to moping.


yes, this is the classic push and pull. i was lonely and wanted support but at the same time i was pushing everyone away. what helped me was this forum because i could turn it on and off whenever i wanted to. i could keep my distance from people in real life yet still connect to other human beings through here.



> Each time I write a post on a forum such as this, I wonder if I really should post it. Should I annoy others with my whinging about nothing?


you are making assumptions that you are annoying us. you are minimizing things by saying it's all nothing. it's not all nothing. if it were nothing, there'd be no issue and you wouldn't be running all this stuff through your mind.



> How many more chances are people going to give me before they decide to ignore me?


you aren't being ignored. however, sometimes i find i kind of hit a brick wall with your posts because things are worded in such a way that there's nothing more to be added to the discussion.



> Is it better to anticipate that result and not say anything?


no, because you just do not know what the result will be.



> If I put the time that I spend complaining into study, then at least that would be one less thing to feel guilty about. My teachers think I'm "bored." I rarely feel bored, just can't make myself concentrate. But I can't even start to explain that to them; I just put on a nervous little smile and say "something like that," to everything they say.


i don't think you are complaining, i think you are struggling and you're trying to find a way out of what you're going through.



> But yes, there goes another set of ramblings that people don't want to know about.


again an assumption you make. just because you think this doesn't necessarily mean it's true.



> Thanks for replying Mari and Ladybug. It's appreciated.


we're here to help you, any time. :hug:


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## gooblax (Sep 22, 2007)

Thanks ladybug. *hugs*

Here's just a little unusual analogy-type-thing to explain my view of things:

When results violate existing theories that scientists are particularly convinced in, they make the results fit or create an exception. One example -because they firmly believed in the law of conservation of energy, they 'invented' a particle (neutrino) to account for the loss of mass in radioactive decay and waited years to discover proof for it. Why shouldn't individuals do similarly? I do understand that the law of conservation of energy has been extensively tested and proven correct in all cases (as long as we acknowledge the energy-momentum relationship and pretend to accept the theoretical physicists' assertions that "that's how it is, and if you don't understand, then you don't need to") so it's not quite the same, but it will do for comparison.

In my situation, I may as well state that the "Gooblax Principle" applies, and following example, fail to explain it concisely to others. It may not appear to hold up against all the available evidence, but the conclusion is that the individual named as such is not a decent person and doesn't really deserve to be happy. 

Essentially, I'm attempting to say that I'm aware that a reasonable amount of my thoughts/beliefs/assumptions may be fallacious, but as long as the Gooblax Principle is in effect, I'm inclined to believe that they are true simply because the Gooblax Principle says that they are. If I have to invent a new particle to hold with the Principle, then abolish it in another scenario, the Principle doesn't mind. Yes, I would make a lousy scientist!  I wish I knew how to disprove it rather than just try to pretend that it's not there. But that's the thing - it's not entirely based on evidence so can't be disproved for me with evidence (even when it has been). 

I dunno, maybe I'm being too analytical about this. I won't give my Gooblax Principle-based responses to your questions ladybug, if that's okay with you (after all, they're bound to be just as illogical). I suppose this might be another of those 'brick wall' posts (I'll need to learn to avoid those). At least I had fun with the scientific comparison (though unfortunately, it reminds me of a discussion I used to participate in; the conclusion of which still brings unpleasant feelings). Anyway, I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on all that, whatever those thoughts may be.


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## Into The Light (Sep 22, 2007)

that's certainly a very interesting analogy you've made. i'm rather impressed 

this is definitely not a brick wall post, and i'm glad you've made it.

i think the difference here between the scientist approach and the gooblax principle is this. with the scientist approach, it's not just one person - it's everyone who's specialized in that field who put their heads together, and they all come to the same conclusion - that more than likely there is a particle we don't have evidence for. it's not just one person who has this thought - it's something _everyone_ has agreed on, simply because it seems to be the most logical explanation.

the gooblax principle is flawed because it is only you who believes in it. your logic is flawed and your thinking is illogical. the trouble is, you can't see it, because you are basing your thinking on your feelings. you FEEL you're no good, worthless, deserving of misery, but objectively, there is no valid argument for this. objectively, you are a very intelligent young lady, and you are more concerned about others than about yourself. your view is obstructed, and everyone around you can see that but you. 

the evidence that you are not all those awful things you claim to be IS there, it's just a matter of you being able to look beyond those blinders you have on. it's hard work but i can assure you the evidence is there. we just need to find a way for you to be able to see it. maybe the whole scientific comparison would help you better than all this abstract talk i may have been giving you. i encourage you to write from the analytical/scientific perspective and this might actually be a better form in which we can help you see the evidence you need to see.

i hope this all makes sense to you, if not, let me know


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## gooblax (Sep 23, 2007)

Okay, I can see the difference between the scientists and myself in terms of number of people, but how about qualifications? Technically, an individual should be at least as qualified to make judgements about themselves, as scientists are to make judgements about things they cannot see (and at that time [1931] couldn't detect). There is only one person who is an expert on a particular person, and that's themselves.

I can only sometimes pull off the scientific comparisons - it really depends upon my mood (I was quite lucky yesterday). At the moment, it's not so good. *shrug*

Thanks ladybug.


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## Into The Light (Sep 23, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Technically, an individual should be at least as qualified to make judgements about themselves, as scientists are to make judgements about things they cannot see (and at that time [1931] couldn't detect). There is only one person who is an expert on a particular person, and that's themselves.



i agree, the one expert on any given person is the person him or herself. the trouble is, when it comes to ourselves our views can become limited or distorted. to make an attempt at a scientific analogy - and this may be totally useless because i'm not so very scientifically minded - take this example.

you can examine something under a microscope. this microscope basically gives you a zoomed in view. you can see cells and microbes and all kinds of crazy stuff. it's all very interesting - but you are so close to those cells that you cannot see what these cells altogether make up. only if you are able to zoom out can you see that all these cells together become a leaf, or something else. if your microscope's zooming out capability is broken, you are only focused on the detail and unable to see the big picture.

the other possibility is, you might have a bad lens in the microscope. the lens distorts what you see. it may shape those cells into something they are not. your observations then are invalid, but you do not know it, because you do not know your lens is bad. or, you may not want to admit your lens is bad, because then you have to go out and spend money on a new one. or you have to admit that all the work you did is invalid, because of the bad lens, but then that would mean you'd have to start over again, and redo the work.  admitting that there is a problem with the lens means having to deal with other scenarios you might not be prepared to deal with. it then becomes easier to say, "my lens is just fine!", and to come up with all the rationalizations of why.

in your case, i see your zooming-out capability isn't working very well, and i see you have a bad lens in your microscope.

i hope this analogy makes some sense to you.


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## gooblax (Sep 24, 2007)

Yeah, that makes sense, thanks. 

How are you doing?


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## Into The Light (Sep 24, 2007)

i'm doing ok, just seem to be feeling the symptoms of depression a bit, only mildly though. i'm sure i'll bounce back again in a day or two. how about you? are these posts helping you at all?


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## gooblax (Sep 24, 2007)

Hmm. *hugs*

I'm feeling particularly unimportant and inconsequential, and that I shouldn't be whinging. What could be considered to be my issues are negligible compared to others' - kind of like how the mass of an electron is negligible when measuring atomic weight. So I might have a couple of electrons, but other people have extra neutrons and protons (which are approximately 1800 times larger) to deal with. (I'd thought of that earlier, but it sounded better then...) Anything that I might want to have support with isn't worth saying.



> are these posts helping you at all?


I think so - I can see where I'm at with that microscope lens thing: using any other lens, I think that any person would be able to look at the cells and see exactly the same thing as I can see with my lens. If they see anything different, then it's a problem with the accuracy of their equipment, not mine.

I really don't feel that I should post this, but it looks like the selfish baby strikes again. Thanks for putting up with me so far.


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## Into The Light (Sep 24, 2007)

gooblax said:


> Hmm. *hugs*


thanks 



> I'm feeling particularly unimportant and inconsequential, and that I shouldn't be whinging.


has anything happened to make you feel this way at this moment?



> What could be considered to be my issues are negligible compared to others'


what do you think your issues might be, and what do you think others' issues are?



> - kind of like how the mass of an electron is negligible when measuring atomic weight. So I might have a couple of electrons, but other people have extra neutrons and protons (which are approximately 1800 times larger) to deal with. (I'd thought of that earlier, but it sounded better then...) Anything that I might want to have support with isn't worth saying.


no matter how small those electrons are, they still do exist and they still do have an effect on everything around them. they still have the power to create a positive or a negative charge, or to cancel out a positive or negative charge. they might be tiny, and in _relative terms_ be negligible, but the more you have the more they add up. in absolute terms they cannot be ignored.

you know, a happier you would result in happier parents and happier friends. a happier you means you can support those who might be having a more difficult time. changing the number of those electrons could reduce the strength of that negative charge you are stuck with right now, and it would not only benefit you but those you care about as well.



> I think so - I can see where I'm at with that microscope lens thing: using any other lens, I think that any person would be able to look at the cells and see exactly the same thing as I can see with my lens. If they see anything different, then it's a problem with the accuracy of their equipment, not mine.


there's the rationalization that i talked about, anything to conclude that your lens is fine and doesn't need fixing. it's not just me that sees your lens is faulty. others who have responded to your posts see it too. i've had that very same lens you are using right now. it took me a while but i realized the lens was useless. eventually you will too.


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## gooblax (Sep 25, 2007)

> has anything happened to make you feel this way at this moment?


I'm not entirely sure. It might be the whole 'guilt thing' building up.

I've been deciding whether or not to put in a scholarship application for uni (which gets considered based upon results and leadership stuff). I haven't done much leadership stuff, so that's quite shaky ground already. My results might have been alright earlier, but I've screwed things up in this half of the year. So now I'm relying on how I do in the final exams - and from how I've been doing recently, I won't have a chance. The application is due by this Thursday, after having been open for a couple of months.

Finally, I convinced myself that I might as well try, so I spoke to the careers advisor at school. (I get quite intimidated talking to people I don't know, so that was a bit difficult.) I asked her about the scholarships, she said I'd have to get the forms online, asked why I wanted a hard-copy, why I hadn't applied for any, and what sort of mark I'm going to get, all the while complaining that everyone had left things so late. I find it rather difficult to explain to people that the marks I may get in exams in the future (and even those in the recent past) could be completely different to what I was getting earlier in the year (and in the years before that). There's even a look that people make, where they take longer when they blink and tilt their head very slightly to the side... like "shut up, you know you'll do well"... when I don't know that at all. But that was managable, until she gave the little 'guilt barb' a tweak - "You know, I had all this information out weeks ago... so people wouldn't miss out on the opportunity." Instantly, I began to feel sad (had to make sure I wasn't going to cry), then became angry at myself for feeling sad. 

I think it might have just followed from that, but I dunno. (Notice how it takes me half a page to get to the dratted point? *sigh*)



> what do you think your issues might be, and what do you think others' issues are?


I think all my so-called issues can be summarised as a lack of self-control. Others have real issues: think of any situation that could cause any distress, and that's an example.

I'm crap at being helpful, and most of the time I'm too selfish to bother. Whether I'm happy or not, I don't think that will change, so it's quite fitting that I be punished for it.

Well, thanks ladybug.

I saw my therapist today, and the third question she asked was "How's the study going?" Is school all that anyone can think of? Considering that each time she's asked me about study recently, I've told her that I haven't been doing much... Then if I appear stressed or something, my friends ask if it's about school. Like that's the only damn thing in life. Sure, I don't have a life outside school, but damn... I don't even think about school much anymore (other than "wow, I should be doing stuff").

I found out what my therapist thinks that I should be getting out of therapy, though. She reckons that she's establishing a relationship between us before getting on to helping change things. She asked whether I had any feelings towards the sessions - to put it bluntly, I don't. I don't dislike them, but I don't like them either; I don't dread them, I don't look forward to them. So whatever 'relationship' she's trying to establish (over 10 sessions now) hasn't worked. Then she told me that she thinks that it is because I have the attitude of not wanting things to be different: ie.





> I am the problem and could change things if I wanted to. But I don't want to, not really. If I did, I wouldn't be trying to make myself miserable, would I?


So, not only am I complaining about a couple of electrons, I'm holding onto these electrons like helium (2 electrons making a full outer-shell, which is why it's stable and unreactive). 

****ing pathetic piece of ****.

Yet another edit: Okay, my mood has changed again (some consistency would be nice). Now I'm feeling kind of restless and impulsive. It scares me when I feel like this. It's when my thoughts about suicide seem the most real, or at least thinking about finding something to knock myself out for a couple of hours. But I never do anything, so what am I afraid of? I dunno. I hate this so much... I don't know if I can deal with it now.


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## Into The Light (Sep 25, 2007)

> I think all my so-called issues can be summarised as a lack of self-control. Others have real issues: think of any situation that could cause any distress, and that's an example.



you cannot tell me you have no issues and that you are not in distress.



> It's when my thoughts about suicide seem the most real, or at least thinking about finding something to knock myself out for a couple of hours.



this is a very serious sign of distress, and it's distress that you can't solve on your own. my question to you is this: do you want to stop feeling the way you are or do you want to continue on as you have been?


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## gooblax (Sep 25, 2007)

I want to stop feeling like this.


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## Into The Light (Sep 26, 2007)

:hug: gooblax, you're suffering, and my heart truly goes out to you. you're in pain, but it doesn't have to stay this way. there is help available to you if you want it. what you do with it is up to you.


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## gooblax (Sep 26, 2007)

Thanks Ladybug. I guess what I really have to do is figure out how to make use of the available help. Thankyou.


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## Into The Light (Sep 26, 2007)

any time, gooblax. we're here if you need us. :hug:


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