# To fight depression, or not to fight



## BluMac81 (Jul 8, 2008)

Sometimes I wonder if the simple act of fighting depression and the 'not wanting' to have depression produce more severe effects of the depression in and of itself.  I was a Buddhist for a while (still sort of am), and they taught that it is the 'not wanting' this or that and 'fighting against' this or that that indeed causes the greatest difficulties, yet if you accept it, the fact that you are indeed depressed, it could be quite possible that your depression would wane?  Thoughts?


----------



## lallieth (Jul 8, 2008)

Hi Mac

Interesting point of view.In the past when I fought the anxiety,it did indeed get worst.Fighting depression or anxiety is like battling with yourself.

I try to see purpose in everything I do,everything I am,including panic disorder.It was only with this view that I realized that the panic disorder I was trying to fight,may have a important purpose in my life

I learned that I needed to slow down,put more value into my own life as well as the lives around me.I needed to change my way of thinking,my way of dealing with certain situations,and in the final analysis,change my life.

It is when you stop battling that clarity comes,you can't see the whole picture when your vision is clouded by a  constant daily battlefield.

My mom who has lived with depression most of her life has told me "it doesn't mean that you give up,it means that you,with the help of mental professionals and/or medication that you learn to accept what it is with grace and clarity.


----------



## braveheart (Jul 8, 2008)

Jung said that we cannot change anything unless we first accept it. I find that to be true, over and over again.


----------



## Retired (Jul 8, 2008)

Since depression is a medical illness which affects mood and motivation, what's needed is the support and guidance to seek professional help.

Depression is a treatable illness, that requires the attention of a health professional to set up an appropriate treatment plan, that may include a combination of medication and supportive psychotherapy.

Resistance to seek proper medical attention is usually due to distorted thinking caused by the illness along with apprehensions or embarrassment due to the stigmas attached to mental illness.

_Fighting_ depression would be like fighting cardiovascular disease or diabetes.  It cannot be done without professional medical care.


----------



## Daniel (Jul 15, 2008)

BluMac81 said:
			
		

> I was a Buddhist for a while (still sort of am), and they taught that it is the 'not wanting' this or that and 'fighting against' this or that that indeed causes the greatest difficulties



A similar Buddhist point:



> As the tendency to view the world self-referentially loses its hold, we begin to appreciate the Einsteinian world in which all realities are relative and all points of view subjective. Then a happiness that has more to do with acceptance than gratification becomes available to us.
> 
> Opening Up to Happiness (article)



And:

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Happiness Trap: How to Stop Struggling and Start Living: Russ Harris, Steven Hayes - Amazon

Of course, as you and the other posters suggest, there are positive, effective ways to "fight" depression (therapy, meds, exercise, socialization, etc.) and negative, counterproductive ways to "fight" depression (avoiding a step-by-step approach by trying to do too much at once, denial and self-stigmatization that leads to lack of treatment, blaming oneself, etc.).



			
				BluMac81 said:
			
		

> ...yet if you accept it, the fact that you are indeed depressed, it could be quite possible that your depression would wane?



Yes:



> “It’s a shift from having our mental health defined by the content of our thoughts,” Dr. Hayes said, “to having it defined by our relationship to that content — and changing that relationship by sitting with, noticing and becoming disentangled from our definition of ourselves.”
> 
> Lotus Therapy: Mindfulness Meditation gains ground in therapy - Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help  & Mental Health Support Forum


----------



## Elizabeth (Aug 5, 2008)

I was depressed when I was a teenager, I stayed in my room all day every day, didnt tell my mum or dad I was bullied, eventually they found out I was depressed I went to see a friend who counselled ut only once as I felt better after. So it is good to get help, but I then got depressed after when met Mark, he helped me, but I didnt tell anyone else or see anyone. I was okay after for a cpl years until last year then got depressed again. And this time had suicidal images which really scared me, still I saw no-one and  only told Mark, dont want my parents to find out. I am okay now. We came to N Z again on a working holiday felt we needed a change and we love it here so much.


----------



## Orange (Aug 5, 2008)

I think "the 'not wanting' to have depression" is in fact making the situation worst. If you break a leg I am sure you would feel the same. You didn'nt want it but it happened, same with your depression. It's not your fault, it's part of lifes challenges. 

Accepting it is a good starting point with any illness. My first depression was very difficult to accept. But thanks God I did the right move by educating myself about it and then reaching out for my family and friends who were very understanding. One of my friend who had similar problems was very helpful. She told me to see her doctor and he accepted me as a patient. This was great news because I didn't have a family doctor. 

He directed me in the right direction and I am so greatful to have found him. I had two relapses since and it was always after antidepressant withdrawal.
It took five years to get my diagnostic "dysthymia". Now I understand some of my behaviors in the past which I had difficulties dealing with and it now make all sense. 

I now think that my serotonin level has always been a bit low througout my life and when I got to much stress for too long at my work...poof I went into depression. Just like a safety valve in a steam plant. Of course I had signs here and there prior to my depression but how could I tell? 

Now I am accepting that if I speed up the machine too much then I am not helping myself. So I listen more to the signs, if i'm feeling tired I rest, if i'm feeling good I am productive but I put some limits.





> Sometimes I wonder if the simple act of fighting depression and the 'not wanting' to have depression produce more severe effects of the depression in and of itself.


----------



## BluMac81 (Aug 5, 2008)

People like you are my idol Orange, I tell you it takes courage to 'not fight' a mental disorder.  I did fight and win one of my wars that had plagued me all thoroughout childhood and adult life, social anxiety.  I did it by "feeling the fear and doing it anyway", through experience in social encounters, I feared social situations less and less.

But now, I deal with issues that developed during my time in the military, I joined when I was 17 and was taught that this is how I should discipline myself in my adult life.  Discipline through punitive measures.  Guilt.  And most of all, shame in any mental illness.

Thats right, I feel guilty, ashamed and often punish myself (SI) for the days failures & mistakes, and feel guilty and ashamed and like an overall 'weak person' with all the struggles in mentall illness I've had.  Perhaps the guilt and punitive measures over being depressed, sleep phobia panic attacks, etc. is prolonging my full recovery.

Heh, was talking to this with my Mother just today.  She said, for the first time, after me being out of the military for 2 years, that maybe it wasn't the best idea for me to join the military at age 17.  I'm 26, almost 27 now, and am already feeling guilty that I'm STILL not over these issues at this age.  

BUT, I'm in the process of changing careers.  I feel a calling to eventually help people going through these psycological issues.  The RIGHT way, and KNOWING what they are going through.  So in some way perhaps going through these mental ailments could serve a purpose in my life for the long term.  I pray that is true...


----------



## ladylore (Aug 6, 2008)

Instead of calling it a mental disorder how about reframing it and calling what it is, a mental illness. It sounds like you have been through the mill Blumac, which is really to bad. 

Try to stay gentle with yourself because you are working hard to work through these things. It takes a heck of alot of energy and courage to do this kind of work.

Take care.


----------



## Neil (Aug 14, 2008)

That's a point of view I have never thought about but I would rather fight I guess than accept it.


----------



## amastie (Nov 24, 2008)

braveheart said:


> Jung said that we cannot change anything unless we first accept it. I find that to be true, over and over again.



Hi,

this reply is written months after this thread was started just because I found it when I did a search on living with mental illness in the long-term.  Want to read more of this before calling it a night.

Your quote from Jung, braveheart, rings true for me also, and helps "over and over again".

It also recalls the Serenity Prayer of Alcoholics Anonymous
     "God grant me the serenity
      to accept the things I cannot change,
      the courage to change the things I can,
      and the wisdom to know the difference"

I try to remember those words when I want to give up, when I can't find enough strength in my belief that all our experience has meaning.

Thanks,

amastie




=====================================================



(Must remember that these consecutive posts will be joined and give some indication that they are responding to different posters - thus, the line above)





Daniel said:


> A similar Buddhist point:
> ...
> 
> And:
> ...



Wow!  (Youir whole post.)
More to hold onto.

Thanks,
amastie



====================================================================





BluMac81 said:


> ... I tell you it takes courage to 'not fight' a mental disorder. ...


Yes, and yet it seems also to take courage to fight it, or at least to fight to stay present and alive despite it 



BluMac81 said:


> I did it by "feeling the fear and doing it anyway", through experience in social encounters, I feared social situations less and less.
> ...


That's wonderful, BluMac.  I hope that that particular war is over for you 



BluMac81 said:


> ... I feel guilty, ashamed and often punish myself (SI)


  I overeat and sit motionless all day.  It feels like a different form of SI.



BluMac81 said:


> ... feel .. 'weak person' with all the struggles in mentall illness I've had.


  We keep fighting so hard in one way or another and yet feel so weak simply because we have the experience.




BluMac81 said:


> Perhaps the guilt and punitive measures over being depressed, sleep phobia panic attacks, etc. is prolonging my full recovery.


It's part of it, isn't it?  Hope things are better now.



BluMac81 said:


> ... I'm 26, almost 27 now, and am already feeling guilty that I'm STILL not over these issues at this age.


I'm tempted to use a smilie to express my smile but it might seem then that I'm smiling *at* your experience and of course I'm not.  I'm smiling wryly, as someone, one of very many, who know that the carrying of these issues is something that we continue to live with for very much longer than 27 years.  I hope that you and others don't, but would also like to think that whether or we do, we don't feel guilty for it.



BluMac81 said:


> BUT, I'm in the process of changing careers.  I feel a calling to eventually help people going through these psycological issues.  The RIGHT way, and KNOWING what they are going through.  So in some way perhaps going through these mental ailments could serve a purpose in my life for the long term.  I pray that is true...


I fundamentally believe that to be true BluMac.  And maybe, regardless of different spiritual beliefs, if one *wants* that to be true, it will be.

All the best,

amastie

==================================================




Neil said:


> ... (your signature) "I know that I'm intelligent because I know that I know nothing. - Socrates"


Wow!  Did he say that?!  In the midst of all my ignorance, I have bee drawn to certain figures throughout my life.  One of them certainly was Socrates.  Your quote recalls the flights of imagination which took me back to the time and place and the manner in which he taught.

Come to think of it, my present-day imagination is more likely to follow his footsteps at the end of his life

<Oops! .. backtrack ... fighting on.  >

And this is the last of my replies for this evening.

Good wishes to all,

amastie


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 24, 2008)

Hi BlueMac - I understand your feelings of shame and guilt over your illness.  I too struggle with my own issues which I often tend to view as frailties.  But, and there is a big BUT here, those feelings of shame and guilt are not warranted.  We didn't exactly have a choice in the matter.  I didn't wake up one day and decide that I depression and anxiety were the way to go! .  So now, when I start feeling the shame  / guilt, I take a deep breath and force myself to not go down those dark paths (ok - as seen recently in my posts - I'm not always "great" at doing this (oops! ) - but I keep on fighting).  Life is life, and we are often dealt cards that we don't necessarily like.  We make the best of it. I liken my illness with alcoholism - While I know it's there, I'll be d***ed if I'm going to give in to the urges it brings along with it.

As for your decision to help others....you already have BlueMac - I've read many of your posts in recent times....And thank you for participating here the way that you do.  Your posts always compel me to think a little deeper and smile a little longer.

....Ok, blushing a little now....didn't realize that this was an older post - I'll blame it on Amastie!


----------



## Lana (Nov 24, 2008)

Somehow, I missed this one before, but better late than never. 

Few things...
I believe that many actually do fight mental illness. When I say "fight" I don't mean cope, I don't mean put up with, I don't mean accept or cure. Most "fight" acceptance of it, they "fight" the idea that they may need help, they "fight" biology by refusing to take medication, they "fight" with friends and families thinking that'll prove their independence and freedom of the illness. It's a tough tough tough fight...and sadly, a loosing one.

So, I'm thinking that Buddhists are right, though one of (what they call) Truths is that "wanting" is what causes grief. As long as you "want" to beat the disease in this "fight", you will suffer...and most likely, the disease will will. In fact, disease gets stronger. (What's the saying? "Evil begets evil?")

Second comment was that sometimes it helps how we phrase our words and in trun, our thoughts. Neurolingusitics say that how we phrase our outcomes (our goals) can actually affect how we go about reaching it. So, to say...hmm....example....I don't want to wear a yellow shirt...means you have to have the yellow shirt in the first place...so that you can "not want" it. NLP principles say that all outcomes should be phrased in a positive. So, with regards to the shirt, NLP would recommend saying "I want to wear a green shirt".....changing language from "don't want" to "want"....hope that's making sense.

To apply this to the current discussion, what if we changed the "I don't want to be depressed" to "I want to be happy" or "I want to be content" or "I want to laugh" or (my personal favorite) "I want to go shopping!" and so on? This way you're not only changing from negative to positive, but you're also giving yourself a new direction to move to....rather then away from. 

I know, it may seem a bit quirky but it helped......aaaand.....I found it quite challenging to change my wording at first. It's amazing how our mindsets work. 

P.S. I just remembered another analogy with regards to "fighting" and wanted to share that also.... 
Fighing mental illness can be like rowing against the water current..upstream....it's very strenuous and impossible to control which way the boat goes. However, if you put the oars down and let the current carry the boat, you will find that the shore is covered with beautiful scenery and that when needed, it is very easy to steer the boat as it floats.


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 24, 2008)

:loveit:  I really enjoyed what you're saying Lana.  Certainly very thought provoking and, I never looked at it this way.  I think you're right: in our spoken words and our phraseology, we may be revealing even more of our thoughts....and not quirky at all - I like the ideas.

....hmmmm...The "fighting" part...can be difficult at times.  I'm someone who has taken on the 'battle' so to speak.  I get angry that I'm here, I get frustrated that I have some of the thoughts that I have and, I fight hard for others to never recognize in me ANY signs of my illness.  I've become quite adept in my life at being the joker, the prankster  - If I'm cracking the jokes, "maybe no one will notice"....But, you make a good point.

But, as you suggest in your post, maybe the language and the choice to no longer fight are all things that come into play with hard work, practice and conscious decision making....You've made me wonder if the fighting isn't an easier path for some of us.


----------



## Lana (Nov 24, 2008)

Oh fighting is definately easier, not because it is easier on the resources required to keep up the fight, but because of our conditioning as a culture, as a society, and as individuals.  

It takes courage to accept a condition, to admit that we're not infallable, that bad things do happen to good people, and that life as you knew it, or hoped it to be, will be a little bit different.  Those are not easy challenges.  I think, that each and every one of us that faces our issues (or even acknowledges an issue) is that much more stronger, braver, and courageous....Well done!!


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 24, 2008)

...I just had a "light bulb" moment...all due to you - thank you.

I just realized that I've been avoiding journalling about my thoughts and feelings because then I'd have to acknowledge what's been going on. 



> I'd have to accept a condition, to admit that we're not infallable, that bad things do happen to good people, and that life as you knew it, or hoped it to be, will be a little bit different.



I don't know why it's taken me so long to recognize it? I've been avoiding my journal (which is part of my therapy) for close to a month now.

Just wanted to share the insight - and thank you.


----------



## Lana (Nov 24, 2008)

Thank you for sharing, Jazzey! :hug:  And that would be a great entry to put down in your journal


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 24, 2008)




----------



## NicNak (Nov 27, 2008)

Since coming to terms with my illness and accepting myself as I am.  I have found more peace.  It was weird when it hit me.  

Now, I can now roll with my symptoms and cope with them better.  If I am anxious in a grocery store, I leave the store, sit in the car to collect myself.  If I start to feel better I go back in to finish my shopping, if not I leave.  Tomorrow is another day.

With acceptance for me has brought me cutting myself some slack.  I have stopped beating up on myself for the things I struggle with.  I just try again the next day etc.

I still struggle and I accept that too.  I just do the best I can.


----------



## amastie (Nov 29, 2008)

NickNack said:


> Since coming to terms with my illness and accepting myself as I am.  I have found more peace.  It was weird when it hit me.
> 
> Now, I can now roll with my symptoms and cope with them better....
> With acceptance for me has brought me cutting myself some slack.  I have stopped beating up on myself for the things I struggle with.  I just try again the next day etc.
> ...



That's wonderful NickNack!  
I'm very glad,
Take good care,
amastie


----------



## prayerbear (Nov 29, 2008)

Are you taking meds for depression? I see the Abilify commercials which is advertised to treat resistant depression that is if the antidepressant isn't working! Also after a year of psychiatric therapy I am not as fearful as I used to be.(My diagnosis is bipolarII, PTSD, and OCD)-a very fearful combo. I am sure that can help as therapy changes the structure of the brain. Also, a physical evaluation might detect the source of depression (like an underactive thyroid gland)

Fight depression! My beliefs teach to fight fear and to be strong and courageous!


----------



## BluMac81 (Nov 30, 2008)

It's almost like the debate between CBT and ACT therapy, one tells you to fight and one tells you to 'let go'.  
Anyway I am not taking anti-depressants at all personally, just xanax for anxiety bursts and lunesta for sleep.  Depression for me happens for one half of the day... so its like this accelerated bipolar thing.  Either way tried every anti-depressant out there and nothing helped.  Not sure about Abilify added on, that's just a lot of meds mixed up in your brain, kinda uneasy about that.


----------



## Lana (Nov 30, 2008)

But what is there to fight??  Depression is like part of your makeup, like your personality, like a birth mark....you can't fight it..and you can't exactly let it go.  What is usually encouraged is learning how to live *with* it.  It would be futile to try and live as if you don't have depression and it would be equally futile to fight something that's a part of your existance, know what I mean?

Whenever you have an episode, learn from it, learn what makes you tick, learn what makes you drop, learn what picks you up or brings you down and so on.  What you do then is use that knowledge to cope and live with these episodes.  Knowing yourself is power.  So, stop fighting that power and stop trying to "let it go"....use it.


----------



## Daniel (Nov 30, 2008)

BluMac81 said:
			
		

> It's almost like the debate between CBT and ACT therapy, one tells you to fight and one tells you to 'let go'.



That does remind me of the serenity prayer based on Stoic philosophy:



> "Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can *and the wisdom to know the difference*."
> 
> Resilience: Get a Grip and Set Your Sights Above Adversity - Psychlinks



With depression, since people _always_ get better over time, there is a moving target as to what is realistic to expect in treatment within weeks or months.     But it always takes longer than anyone would like, of course.


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 30, 2008)

I agree with you Daniel.  And, while I love this prayer - sometimes, on cynical days, it's just that - a prayer.  So, how do you move past the prayer and get to the practical?  (rhetorical question) - I haven't figured that one out for myself yet.

I've read this thread a few times.  My natural inclination is to fight.  I've read yours and Lana's words of wisdom in recent times (and others too) - some days, it's just not easy to 'let go' and to 'accept the things I cannot change'.
===============
...sorry- didn't mean to make this about me - I've just been following this thread for some time and liked the ideas in it.  I hope everyone knows I'm posing more of a practical question here.


----------



## Lana (Nov 30, 2008)

Jazzey said:


> ...sorry- didn't mean to make this about me - I've just been following this thread for some time and liked the ideas in it. I hope everyone knows I'm posing more of a practical question here.


 
No need to be sorry, Jazzey.  Your posts benefit all of us, even though it may seen that it's about you.  I too have had days when no amount of intellectual rationalization helped and so it's interesting to me to learn what others do to get out of that funk.  I used to hit the mall but "retail therapy" is expensive and often causes more problems then it solves.


----------



## Jazzey (Nov 30, 2008)

...have recently done the retail therapy and, all I have to show for it is an excessive bill! Oh well - won't worry about it until next month (credit cards! )


----------



## amastie (Dec 1, 2008)

Daniel said:


> ...since people _always_ get better over time, there is a moving target as to what is realistic to expect in treatment within weeks or months.     But it always takes longer than anyone would like, of course.


Always get better, Daniel?  That hasn't been my experience, maybe for diferent reasons, I don't know.  Remembering to accept what I cannot change helps me to go on.  My primary diagnosis isn't depression.  Rather the depression is a consequence of living with more (inceasingly?) problematic functioning and relating to others.  In hat sense, it's probably more like a grieving.
Just my thinking,
amastie
===============


Lana said:


> No need to be sorry, Jazzey.  Your posts benefit all of us, even though it may seen that it's about you.  I too have had days when no amount of intellectual rationalization helped and so it's interesting to me to learn what others do to get out of that funk.  I used to hit the mall but "retail therapy" is expensive and often causes more problems then it solves.



I agree about Jazzey's, and all those posts which not only hear others but which share with others benefit all 

I can't handle money in my pocket, but make up for that by budgetting in such a way that I don't keep cash on me.  Pay all bills in advance on a fortnightly basis.  Sometimes, I get a bill in credit!  Mainly, I spend on food (big time!), stationery and practical things.  My impulse is more a matter of general impulsivity, not a need to spend specifically.  Food is my main addiction and that, in itself, can also get expensive when I don't keep food in so as *not* to eat, then feel that I "must" have a particular food which is available to order in.  Not good   .. but mostly mangeable, again, by not leaving money in my account.

amastie


----------



## Daniel (Dec 1, 2008)

> Always get better, Daniel?



You caught me.  But, yes, people with depression do get better over time (eventually no longer need in-patient hospitalization/stabilization, can eventually hold down at least a part-time job, etc.), though they may have relapses.  Similarly, life is naturally habituating:

Older may mean happier - Psychlinks

The reason I use the term "always" is because some people, like me 5 years ago, would think their depression is uniquely bad and is not subject to getting better, resulting in "therapeutic nihilism."  And in the _Feeling Good Handbook_, a similar point is that people with depression can feel more pessimistic about their prognosis than people dying of cancer.

And here is a little more context as to where I am coming from:  My dog has arthritis.   Even with treatment, his arthritis will only get worse over time, generally speaking, though he will have periods where he feels better than others (like the summer as opposed to the winter).  So my point is just that depression is not like canine arthritis   Therefore, less stoicism may be required for depression compared to disorders that tend to get progressively worse.  

And these approaches (fight vs. acceptance) are not mutually exclusive, IMHO, which is why I like all the points raised in this thread, such as this point on acceptance:



> What if, like virtually everybody else who suffers repeatedly from depression, you have become a victim of your own very sensible, even heroic, efforts to free yourself--like someone pulled even deeper into quicksand by the struggling intended to get you out?
> 
> The Mindful Way Through Depression ... - Google Book Search


----------

