# Empty



## Eunoia (Oct 26, 2005)

ok, so my time away from "myself" pretty much just came down to _more_ time to think about this crap. I guess, it is kind of impossible to get away from yourself though, lol. The only thing I find helps is to be at a place w/ people who keep you busy ie. going out and not coming home that night. I just feel really torn between everything, like if I realize I have a problem (ed) then shouldn't I be in a position to get help? but I don't know who to turn to. and I hate admitting to problems. you try to become the person who least deserves the help, you don't think you deserve anything better, so why would you deserve help, right? I was talking to a friend of mine today and she said that often our own fears and expectations are what make us feel stuck in a situation and not the situation itself. I completely agree that my fears of what will happen/people's reactions etc. and my expectations of having to live up to that perfect image (in all regards of my life) keep me from reaching out to those options, so I feel stuck... but how do I get around that???? 

I honestly don't have a lot of hope that I will ever recover from my ed... and I am afraid that I won't ever be truly happy... b/c I find that now w/ getting amazing grades, having friendships, having a job/volunteering, and doing all the things I've always wanted to do things are great but at the end of the day there's this big void. a whole lot of emptiness. what was scary was that she (the person I talked to) could see that I wasn't happy which bugs me b/c I don't want to be "that" person but it's a relief somehwat but again I'm thinking of a million and one ways to "repair" that... you can't succeed at this battle if you're fighting yourself!!!! I've been fighting ME now since nine years. I can't do this anymore. I don't want to keep on living this "perect" life, to achieve all of those goals I have only to find myself 40 and miserable.... I can't see any ways out.... I couldn't even manage to go to counseling (granted, the fit just didn't work, but I couldn't even do _that_)! I'm in a position where I'm expected to be competent, have all the answers etc. there's no room for "ok, hold on, actually things aren't ok and everything that you ever thought about me is wrong". I got to the point last year where I couldn't even recognize myself anymore in the mirror- that's scary. 

I never thought I was depressed. Or I didn't want to believe it. Like w/ everything else. I said, just today, no I am generally happy but obviously there's times when things aren't as good.... I don't even believe myself but I can't help but think this way! I don't know why I push away every person that has every wanted to help and yet cry for someone to please help me. I feel like screaming a lot and I can't so it just ends up being this deathly scream inside my head- so loud it could break windows, yet it's silent. I can't cry. I don't feel. I feel dead a lot, did I say that before? I *c* so much yesterday and what do I feel like? nothing. I had gotten over si and was better w/ eating and before I knew it I was back where I started. if I can't go and get help, then will I ever be ok on my own??? will I be able to fight this myself????? Is there ANY hope???????? I have none right now. 

plssss.... anyone????


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## Cat Dancer (Oct 26, 2005)

I've always thought I could fix myself, but I'm not so sure anymore. 

I think getting help is a good idea. 

I have been wondering about happiness lately. Wondering if it is a choice we make. I'm not sure. 

I think sometimes we get so down and so depressed that getting out on our own is too much. I don't know. I know if getting outside help was something I could do right now I would do it. 

I don't think anything I wrote makes any sense. But I wanted you to know that I can relate to what you are saying.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 26, 2005)

> at the end of the day there's this big void. a whole lot of emptiness.


There's the key, I think. What is that void? What's it about? All that activity and distraction doesn't seem to be able to fill it up... why not?



> I couldn't even manage to go to counseling (granted, the fit just didn't work, but I couldn't even do that)!


But you talk as if that was your 'fault" -- the problem with the fit wasn't your "failure" -- it may not even have been the counselor's failure. It's like any other type of relationship -- sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

Therapy DOES work though and it will in your case if you give it a chance. Step one is definitely finding that right fit, though.


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## Heather (Oct 27, 2005)

Oh honey, I am so so sorry that things are like this for you it really hurt me to read your post (because of you not me) I just feel so much for you and I just want to reach out and help you and give you all the answers, but I donâ€™t have any answers to give you. I know that you are saying about not getting help, but sweet heart you need to, I do not know how you do this when it is such a difficult thing to do. It was hard for me to get help but that was because of my low self esteem, not the reasons that you have identified. 

Hun no one has that â€˜perfectâ€™ life it doesnâ€™t exist but yet often we still try to show that we do, this isnâ€™t being true to yourself the real Heather didnâ€™t come out until I started to tell people that no Heather wasnâ€™t happy, even if everything seemed to be going right, under there was a Heather desperately saying let me out I canâ€™t do this anymore it is too much.

You are right about the distraction thing, works for me as well and the other thing I do is I often get involved with other peoples problems so much and ignore my own, which isnâ€™t healthy.   

I think it is good that you have identified this but you need to act on it, I wish I could tell you how but in relation to this my experiences are some what different and I am not an expert, lol.

I really think that you need to talk to someone and get this off your chest, I am not even suggesting a professional but even for now just a person, or can you do phone counselling for now? Because of the things you have said about going to see someone. 

I am always here if you want to PM me and talk about things and get stuff off your chest, I am never too far away 

Wish I could help but please except some ((((((((hugs)))))))) and some fairy dust ******* (if ok). 

Heatherâ€¦


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## Eunoia (Oct 27, 2005)

yeah I always thought and I guess still think so to some extend that I can fix myself too. it did make sense what you said Janet- thanks for replying. I hope that you will be able to reach out and get the help you need. 

see that's why I feel so bad though, so torn, b/c I feel like there's all these people out there who _want_ to get better, who _want_ the help and I'm taking that away from them almost... like when I went to counseling I felt like I shouldn't be there, like someone was more worthy of that... I do feel incompetent b/c I couldn't manage to go to counselling, I was the one who went and now I feel like I threw it all away. I tried, I opened up my LIFE to someone who I had known less than an hour shaking each minute and then I ran.. I guess saying that this is my fault and seeing things as my own fault in general justifies the way I feel. I'm not saying therapy doesn't work, I'm saying that I don't think I will ever get to that point. 

I can't tell you what that void is about... I don't know.... that's what's so frustrating and hopeless b.c I feel no matter what I do or what happens it's there. and yes, I stuff my days full w/ distractions, running from one place to the next, I guess one b/c those things make me feel good, but also to run away from myself, from life.... I can't tell you how many days that;s all I want to do. get away. 

thanks Heather *hugs* I was reading this study that said that one of the reasons why people got help or tried to change their ed was to live an authentic honest life- and just be themselves... I don't know what that feels like, to be honest w/ myself, w/ others...to just be me.... is it all bad? all good? I guess there's a medium but I just don't see how those 2 combine... I always focus on other's problems too, consciously or unconsciously.... w/ my family I'm put in that role, w/ friends and others I guess I take on that role myself.... why are all the things that make me feel good about myself so wrong???? why do I always need those things to make me feel good? to validate me? they don't at the end of the day anyways!!!! you know, I try to pretend and obviously it's working but I can't shake that feeling of being so hopeless, so defeated. I'm trying to "be happier" by I guess minimizing problems, which works for so long but I'm afraid that those things will still be there...waiting for me around the corner. they always have been, they always will be. 
lol, what was that fairy dust? it blocked it out...


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 27, 2005)

I can't recall Eunoia... are you taking any medication  now?


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## Eunoia (Oct 27, 2005)

none. I never told anyone about any of this in all these years.... so no, no meds.... but again, I can't even go to therapy... I don't just want to take meds...ugh.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 27, 2005)

I'm not suggesting "just" meds. Are you familiar with the term "anhedonia"? Could that be the void? Have you considered that you are suffering from dysthymia or depression?


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## Eunoia (Oct 27, 2005)

no, but I do get joy out of things... there's so many things I love to do and that make me happy. it's just that at the end of the day that's not enough b/c I know that it all seems so fake. I know about the past. I know about the present, where as noone around me does.
to answer your question, have I considered dysthimia or depression? yes. but what's the point of adding something else to my list of issues... is that the void? I don't know. I think that if I didn't have to deal w/ this ed and wouldn't feel as helpless w/ family stuff that things would be a lot different... always having to pretend wears on you. I guess I've just done this too long...


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 27, 2005)

> I know that it all seems so fake


Isn't that a form of anhedonia?


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## Eunoia (Oct 27, 2005)

I don't know David. I don't know anymore... I guess if anhedonia means as loss of pleasure or joy from previously enjoyed activities then yes I guess... but I mean if I know why then shouldn't that make a difference? so you're saying that anhedonia means you have depression? where does this get me???


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 28, 2005)

I'm saying the emptiness may be dysthymia... not necessarily major depression. And that it would be worth exploring first whether an antipdepressant can help lift some of that emptiness and perhaps help you feel a little more optimistic, maybe enough to try therapy again.

It also seems to me that you show some characteristics of masked or covert depression, diving into these other activities and focusing on other people as a defense against overt full-blown depression.

There's an excellent book by Terrance Real, _I Don't Want To Talk About It_. It is about the many forms of masked or covert depression in men, mostly men with abusive or otherwise dysfunctional backgrounds - the author himself is a therapist who was abused by his father. Very powerful.


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## Eunoia (Oct 28, 2005)

will have to go look at the book, from what I could see from a journal review of it, it looks really interesting... but I don't _really_ get it. I understand that some symptoms are more obvious and others aren't... but all the info I could find only referred to covert depression in men.... which seems weird, b/c even though it's more "socially accepted" for women I don't see why this would only occur in men... apparently it can occur in women as well but is this more of a theory based on socialization? then it also said that covert depression has 3 domains (self-medication, isolation, and lashing out)- none of which really apply. 

the criteria for dysthymia says 2 yrs as a time frame and for most of the day with more good than bad days- not to say that things are easy but I don't know if I'd say it's as bad as that... then again, I don't consider my issues necessarily bad or even think about them in that context every day.... the past 9 yrs seem pretty much the same; the good days, the bad days, and then the issues... do you really think it's a matter of motivation for me to go to therapy? what I was trying to say was that I don't think therapy is really an option in my case. I really don't want to go on meds.... that's the last thing I want to do. I think I am digging my own holes here, as I said before..closing doors that are opening.... holding on to trying to fight this myself.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 28, 2005)

Terrance Real talks about a variety of forms of covert depression, including workaholism, promiscuity, etc.

I don't see any reason why it should be restricted to males and I don't believe it is. It may well be more common in males...


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## Eunoia (Oct 28, 2005)

yeah I guess I should read the book 1st...... but does it makes sense that I still don't get how to "get there"...get help????? I _can't_


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## ThatLady (Oct 28, 2005)

I think men are more prone to cover up their perceived "weaknesses" than women. Men are supposed to "hang tough". That's not to say that SOME of us women aren't just as likely to do so. While it might be more common in men, it's certainly not confined to that gender.


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## Eunoia (Oct 29, 2005)

ok, if I were to be really really _really_ honest w/ myself (I know I'm going to change my mind about this again and reading what I wrote clearly I go from believing it to not believing it) and you then I'd say that there's a good possibility that the void is anhedonia and that this may be dysthymia. but is that in itself enough to get me to go somewhere? probably not. it's like how on some level I understand I have an ed and on the other hand it's such an engrained part that I don't know how to let go or even think of it as not part of me. I just really wish that I would allow myself to get help. but I guess like with everything else it's just another way of punishing myself, of being able to be in control.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 29, 2005)

Possibly. Perhaps it's fear of what would happen if you did let it go...


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## Eunoia (Oct 30, 2005)

I think there's so many reasons why I'm holding on to all of this. But yes, fear is a huge part of it. I am so afraid to let go, to not be able to be in control of things, to have my world pretty much fall apart as a result... that I don't know how to let go. I keep on reading all these "if's", like recovery is possible if.... but none of the things they list apply.... I was looking at things from my hs years and even just the past couple of years, and you know if someone out there would ask me to sum of all of those years I'd say things about accomplishments, awards, things I was involved in, work, friends, trips.... but the way I summed up those years to the guy I saw those 3 times was w/ something that happened every year, like si, ed's, deaths, other self-destructive behaviours (no need to list), family stuff, incidents..... I honestly feel trapped.


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## Lana (Oct 31, 2005)

Hi Eunoia;
A while ago I read a book, â€œNarcissism: Denial of the True Selfâ€ by Alexander Lowen.  While his focus is on patients with narcissistic disorders (and I certainly do  not mean to imply that), he made a good point that I wanted to share.  

He proposed, that when people try to contain their anger, frustrations, hurt inside, they do so because they fear that any outward display such emotions, will cause them to be out of control and be perceived by others as insane behavior.  He went on further to say that sometimes it may seem like weâ€™re loosing our minds when we express those pent up emotions, like weâ€™re out of control (especially to a narcissist - loss of control is like imposing a death sentence which may explain why many of them do not seek or follow through with therapy).  However, the opposite is true.  When we make a conscious choice to let it all out, we are, in fact, controlling the flow.  Itâ€™s when we try to hide and repress such feelings, that they tend to seep out, or spill at inappropriate moments.  Essentially, that is when weâ€™re least likely to be in control of our emotions and ourselves.

What his patients were not able to do, is let go of their emotions and feel.  This apathy may not seem like a bad thing, but apathy does not give way to empathy and in turn, prevented them from experiencing life to the fullest and to experience joy and contentment.   He described some of his patients as great on the surface, but lost  and sad underneath the image.  

Anyways, what Iâ€™m trying to say is that seeking help, talking it out, the good the bad and the ugly does not put you out of control.  In fact, it is how you take control.


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## Eunoia (Oct 31, 2005)

thanks Lana. 


> Itâ€™s when we try to hide and repress such feelings, that they tend to seep out, or spill at inappropriate moments. Essentially, that is when weâ€™re least likely to be in control of our emotions and ourselves


that's so true, thinking that you're in control only to find yourself not so in control after all... I think I'm pretty good at keeping it "together" but I know how sometimes lectures on a certain topic can impact me or hearing about something/someone or just having people notice I'm not having such a great day- and I don't tend to let them help. I guess thinking that you have things in control makes sense out of this, you know? Like if I am in control then all of this must make sense and I must, after all, have a good life, and I should be happy. I realized today that I have 3 choices:
1) do nothing but be happy about my life
2) stop the behaviours that I have to stop (on my own)
3) admit to problems and go get help
none of them seem too plausible or realistic or something that I'd want to do. but I have to do something. 

will go read your's and David's books!!


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