# Are Creativity and Mental Illness Linked?



## David Baxter PhD (Apr 1, 2004)

Are Creativity and Mental Illness Linked?
All poets are mad," asserted English writer Robert Burton in his 1621 book, The Anatomy of Melancholy. Burton was exaggerating, of course. However, many people do believe that artists are more likely than others to be mentally ill. Many well-known artists, writers and musicians had a history of mental illness, in some cases leading to suicide.

Writers Sylvia Plath, Virginia Woolf and Ernest Hemingway, painter Vincent van Gogh, and musician Kurt Cobain all committed suicide.

Painters Frida Kahlo and Georgia O'Keeffe, and musicians Cole Porter and Charles Mingus suffered from depression.

Is there actually a link between artistic creativity and mental illness? Most artists are not mentally ill, and most mentally ill people are not artists. However, several studies have suggested that artists are more likely than others to suffer from a class of mental illnesses called mood disorders.

*Mood disorders*
Mood disorders include major depression and manic-depressive illness. Major depression is characterized by prolonged deep despair. Alternating periods of euphoria and despair characterize manic- depressive illness. Suicidal thoughts are common in people suffering from either of these disorders.

One of the first controlled studies of the creativity/mood disorder link was completed by University of Iowa psychiatrist Nancy C. Andreason. She compared 30 creative writers at the University of Iowa with 30 people holding jobs that were not inherently creative. She found that 80% of the writers said they had experienced either manic-depressive illness or major depression, while only 30% of the people in noncreative jobs said they had.

Andreason published her results in the October 1987 issue of the American Journal of Psychiatry.

In the late 1980s, Johns Hopkins University psychologist Kay Redfield Jamison also examined the link. She studied 47 painters, sculptors, playwrights and poets, all of whom had received high honors in their fields. Jamison found that 38% of the artists had been treated for a mood disorder. Only about 1% of people in the general population report manic- depressive episodes and about 5% report major depression at some point in their lives.

Skeptics have criticized both of these studies for two reasons. First, both researchers studied very few people. Studies with few people are more likely than large studies to include a group of people that does not accurately represent the population at large.

Second, both researchers interviewed the artists themselves or had the artists fill out questionnaires. It is possible that the interviewers were biased or that the artists misrepresented their true mental state.

*Biographical clues*
A third study attempted to avoid the flaws of the previous research. For 10 years, Arnold M. Ludwig studied the lives of 1,004 men and women prominent in a variety of fields, including art, music, science, sports, politics and business.  He studied these people by reading 2,200 biographies.

Ludwig argued that biographers were less likely than psychiatrists to believe in advance that a person has a mental illness. This would make biographies less biased than psychiatric interviews. Biographers also typically draw information about their subjects from a variety of sources, which would make misrepresentations of mental state more difficult.

The Guilford Press published the results of Ludwig's study in 1995, in a book called The Price of Greatness: Resolving the Creativity and Madness Controversy.

Ludwig concluded that "members of the artistic professions or creative arts as a whole suffer from more types of mental difficulties and do so over longer periods of their lives than members of the other professions."

He found that, as teen-agers, between 29% and 34% of future artists and musicians suffered from symptoms of mental illness. In comparison, only 3% to 9% of future scientists, athletes and businesspeople suffered similar symptoms.

As adults, between 59% and 77% of artists, writers and musicians suffered mental illness, while only 18% to 29% of the other professionals did. Ludwig's findings seemed to confirm the link between mental illness and the artistic temperament. But what is the nature of that link?

*Why?*
Some researchers, including Jamison, speculate that mood disorders allow people to think more creatively. In fact, one of the criteria for diagnosing mania reads "sharpened and unusually creative thinking."

People with mood disorders also experience a broad range of deep emotions. This combination of symptoms might lend itself to prolific artistic creativity.

Ludwig's studies provided some support for the theory that mood disorders can improve creativity. The artistic achievements of about 16% of the artists, writers and musicians he studied improved during times of mental upset.

Ludwig, however, believes other factors also contribute to the high rate of mood disorders among artists. He argues that people in many professions, including sports, politics and business, are extremely creative. He thinks that more people in artistic professions have mental illness because those professions are more accepting of mental illness. As a result, Ludwig speculates, people with mental illness are naturally drawn to artistic professions.

Still others believe that artistic occupations might by their nature magnify the symptoms of mental illness. Artists, musicians and writers often work alone. When they begin to feel upset or depressed, they would not have as much support and encouragement as do athletes, scientists and businesspeople who work with others.

Everyone agrees that treatments for mood disorders need to be improved. Between 60% and 80% of people who commit suicide suffered from a mood disorder. Many people with mood disorders medicate themselves with alcohol or illegal drugs. Despite the pain of mental illness, some people with mood disorders avoid treatments because of potential side effects, such as mental sluggishness.

These side effects can be particularly debilitating for people, such as artists, musicians and writers, whose work springs in large part from states of intellectual fluidity.

_This article was originally printed in the December 1996 issue of Today's Science On File, which each month publishes for students the latest developments in science, medicine, technology and the environment. Copyright (c) 1996 Facts On File News Services._


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## MMJ (Sep 23, 2004)

I found this article very facinating to me as I am an artist myself and I know many friends who are artists and I think this could very well be true.


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## David Baxter PhD (Sep 24, 2004)

A few years ago, _Science_ magazine had a fascinating article on mood disorders and musicians. Then article looked at a time line of the composer Shumann (or possibly Schubert?), comparing the manic episodes over the course of his life with his musical compositions. It was very striking: In his depressions, he wrote very little music. In his normal state, he wrote several compositions. But something like 75-80% of his music was created in his manic states.


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## Ash (Sep 24, 2004)

I can totally see this.  I'm an artist, as well.  I draw, like photography, and write poetry/songs.  My art usually comes from mania while my poems usually stem from depression.  People know when I'm doing okay by my lack of poetry.  

It has also been suggested that Jimi Hendrix was Bipolar.  I'm curious how many of those that od'd had a mental illness.



> Ludwig, however, believes other factors also contribute to the high rate of mood disorders among artists. He argues that people in many professions, including sports, politics and business, are extremely creative. He thinks that more people in artistic professions have mental illness because those professions are more accepting of mental illness. As a result, Ludwig speculates, people with mental illness are naturally drawn to artistic professions.



This kind of thought rankles me.  In my opinion, none of those professions are artistic in nature.  Now maybe some of the people involved are artistic in some form but it takes a different kind of mind set to be in politics and sports.  Artists are generally a little more eccentric and see "outside the box" more so than other more "stable" people.

And I serious doubt that people with mental ilness gravitate towards artistic professions because those professions are "more accepting of mental illness".  How trite.  I'm not saying that all artists have a mental illness but I do believe that a lot of people with a mental illness are artistic.  Why?  That I don't know.  Maybe our brains just work differently.

It took me the longest time to really want to get better simply because I was afraid I would change.  I like the manic, frantic bouts of expression.  I was so afraid that I wouldn't be the same person anymore.  I have seen a change in my ability to express myself since I started medication.  I don't like it one bit.


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## SteelAngel (Oct 1, 2004)

A bit about myself.

My name is Alejandra, but you can call me Alexandra. My story started a couple years ago when I started to realize that the world was going upside down for me? Some people called me crazy, some remained my friends, some have left, some are still in the ride with me
A couple years ago, let's say, 5 years I married a wonderful Canadian guy,his name is Paul. We lived apart for 2 years and together for 2 1/2, which caused a big disaster because naturally what happened is that he cheated on me. I used to live happily until then, which broke my soul(;literally) in two.

Right now, I'm living with him I may be a fool, but that's just me. I moved to Canada just 6 months ago believing in the saying "true love" I left everything behind, career, friends, money, job and whatever else I had.

I don't want to remember now, but it happened to me like 10 months ago when I went totally out of control, I used to have my up and downs, but someday in hospital I had a REAL BAD day, I went out of control. I wanted to poison myself with a controlled medical substance. I finished in hospital, I didn't tell a lot of people because I felt it was not right to scare them away, wrong., I just finished losing more people, because I stopped my medication like  3 months ago. I had another crisis where I almost suicide myself with a knife, big mistake. After all this, I was diagnosed with bipolar disorder.

I know a lot of people don't understand this, a lot of you will. I'm a composer, I like to draw and write stories, even I told to one of my friends my stories would come true if I kept writing, wrong again, they just started to run away from me. I still make my music until now, I write a journal, not a dream one, but a real journal, I'm attending college and making exams in Canada to can achieve my medical degree back, someday I will be doctor here.

If you are a bipolar you may understand me, and if you are a doctor like me, you will get the idea.
Hope to talk to someone soon, btw now I'm under control^^


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 2, 2004)

You say at one point "I stopped my medication like 3 months ago"... did you mean prior to that hospitalization? or do you mean currently? I'm curious because you also say "now I'm under control"...


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## SteelAngel (Oct 4, 2004)

David Baxter said:
			
		

> You say at one point "I stopped my medication like 3 months ago"... did you mean prior to that hospitalization? or do you mean currently? I'm curious because you also say "now I'm under control"...



yeah right now I'm under control, taking my medications and I felt felt in an excellent mood since then, no more swings. Yeah I stopped the medications BEFORE the hospitalization. But now I'm doing great.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 4, 2004)

Ah. Okay. Thanks... and I'm glad to hear it.


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## jacie (Oct 7, 2004)

I am concerned about my very creative and bright 18 year old daughter who recently left for college.  I have some mental illness history in my family, a schizophrenic brother and a sister with a social anxiety problem (two out of ten siblings) and a husband with a high but manageable anxiety level.  When he was a child, and a few times in adulthood, he has had seizures as a result of stress coupled with a trigger, such as blood or needles.  Now I cringe every time my daughter seems to exhibit abnormal behavior.  The problems seem to come and go.  One day I'm ready to take her in to a psychiatrist and the next she's perfectly fine and on a regular schedule.  I don't know if I'm overreacting when she complains to me or not.    I would summarize her problems as "compulsive creativity", which is what drew me to this thread.

She is having trouble falling asleep.  She feels an almost compulsive need to do things late at night in her dorm room such as read, write, exercise.  Then she can't get up in the morning and is always late for class.  She has on one or two occasions not been able to get up for her 2:00 pm class!  She started exhibiting this behavior during her freshman year in high school, staying up all night sometimes working on some busy work project for one of her honors classes because it had to be perfect.  She did this maybe once or twice a month that whole year.  The next year she was tired a lot and couldn't pull those all nighters to save her life.  

She is very bright and creative.  She has a hard time just doing a project and being done with it, because she feels it has to be unique and creative.  She rarely writes poetry or anything for fun anymore because she gets writer's block so bad because she is never satisfied with her work.  She says she doesn't feel energetic or manic at night, just compelled to do things.  Does this sound more like anxiety or OCD?  She has trouble with writing very simple essays or subjects that she has no interest in.  She wants to turn everything into a major creative project.  The last two years or so, every month when her period starts, she can't get out of bed for 2-3 days due to fatigue, nausea and headaches.  So hormones may be playing a factor.  We've had her checked out by a neurologist and she has headache medicine now.  I had myself convinced at one point two years ago that she had chronic fatique syndrome, then she seemed to start getting better.  

In other words, I know it is common for teenagers to need a lot of sleep.  If she absolutely has to get up for something, especially something she likes, she can do it.   She is not a troubled kid, we have a strong stable family.  She is much more creative than anyone on my side of the family.  My husband is creative, too, although he is an engineer.  I am a lawyer.  Our daughter, needless to say is very analytical, maybe overly so.   If I take her in for a psychiatric evaluation, I won't have time until spring break or next summer.  Maybe you can help me deal with this in the meantime.   She is giving me an anxiety problem!  Thanks for this wonderful forum and for any help you can offer.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 7, 2004)

Schizophrenia is an inherited vulnerability but very often families of schizophrenics do not show schizophrenia but rather tendencies toward an anxiety disorder or a mood disorder -- it sound like your daughter may have an anxiety disorder or obsessive-compulsive tendencies but this certainly doesn't indicate that she will develope schizophrenia. In fact, if she has not already shown signs of the unique thought patterns or other symptoms of ecentric behavior or schizophrenia by now, chances are she won't. While the most common age range for developing schizophrenian is probably in that 18-25 year bracket, almost always there will be evidence of oddities or eccenticities in thinking and behavior for quite some time before that.

The other point I would make is that while there may be a link between creativity and mood disorders it is certainly not a 1-to-1 relationship: there are many creative people who do NOT suffer from any form of "mental illness".

What you might do is encourage her to talk to one of the counsellors or doctors on campus about how to manage stress and "perfectionism" more effectively -- that may be something she can relate to that would be helpful without seeming to be critical or alarmist.


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## jacie (Oct 7, 2004)

Thanks, Dr. Baxter.  Can you elaborate a little on the unique thought patterns or eccentric tendencies?  My brother seemed so perfectly normal when he left for college, we were totally shocked by his illness.  His identical twin is doing very well, with no symptoms of the disease, and they just turned 30.  The schizophrenic twin claims that he heard voices in his head since he was a young child, but I'm not sure if that is true or just another delusion.   The twins were wonderful kids, everyone loved them and they excelled at everything: sports, school, etc.  The schizophrenic brother was also very lonely and homesick when he went away to college, and my daughter is now very homesick and I admit it scares me.   Also, how important are her sleep patterns in considering the possibility of bipolar disorder?  

I know I probably worry too much, but I also have a 12 year old son whom we adopted when he was two, who has a bipolar birthmother and possibly a schizophrenic father.  This was before we found out about my brother.  He has had his share of problems over the years, epilepsy, ADHD, learning disabilities.  And you may recall you answered another recent post for me about my daughter's friend who just tried to kill herself Monday.  Somedays I feel like I am surrounded by crazy people, and I appreciate this opportunity to vent.  I've been dying to ask these questions for a while now.  It's hard to talk to friends about this stuff because most people don't have a clue.  Thank you for your time.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 8, 2004)

jacie said:
			
		

> Thanks, Dr. Baxter.  Can you elaborate a little on the unique thought patterns or eccentric tendencies?


That depends on the status and severity of the illness, and to an extent the type (schizophrenia in some ways resembles more a family of similar suyndromes than a single illness): In the acute state, there is an obvious thought disorder present -- tangential thinking, jumps from one thing to the next with no apparent logic or based on the sound of the words or on some idiosyncratic associations, so that the process or conversation is very difficult for anyone else to make sense of. When the illness is in remission, however, many patients still show a characteristic (though much slower) "flight of ideas" and a rather childlioke worldview. It's hard to describe but unmistakable once you've had experience with it...



> My brother seemed so perfectly normal when he left for college, we were totally shocked by his illness.  His identical twin is doing very well, with no symptoms of the disease, and they just turned 30.  The schizophrenic twin claims that he heard voices in his head since he was a young child, but I'm not sure if that is true or just another delusion.   The twins were wonderful kids, everyone loved them and they excelled at everything: sports, school, etc.  The schizophrenic brother was also very lonely and homesick when he went away to college, and my daughter is now very homesick and I admit it scares me.   Also, how important are her sleep patterns in considering the possibility of bipolar disorder?


Bear in mind that many college students are homeseick their first time away from home, and many people, students included, suffer from insomnia -- neither factor is directly related to schizophrenia or any other mental illness. Furthermore, having a close biological relative with schizophrenia does statistically increase the risk for mood disorders, anxiety disorders, etc., but not necessarily for schizophrenia itself -- as you have seen, even in identical twins it is quite possible for one twin to develop the disorder and the other to be perfectly normal. I think the best guess is that it is one of those things that requires a genetic or biological predisposition PLUS the "right" set of environmental circumstances to develop.



> I know I probably worry too much, but I also have a 12 year old son whom we adopted when he was two, who has a bipolar birthmother and possibly a schizophrenic father.  This was before we found out about my brother.  He has had his share of problems over the years, epilepsy, ADHD, learning disabilities.  And you may recall you answered another recent post for me about my daughter's friend who just tried to kill herself Monday.  Somedays I feel like I am surrounded by crazy people, and I appreciate this opportunity to vent.  I've been dying to ask these questions for a while now.  It's hard to talk to friends about this stuff because most people don't have a clue.  Thank you for your time.


You certainly have had more than your share of things to worry about... and I am very pleased that you find this forum helpful in venting and asking questions...

...but yes, you probably do worry more than is necessary )


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## stargazer (Jul 19, 2005)

This is also an interesting thread.  I've always been a creative person myself--or at least geared toward creative projects.  It's sort of in my upbringing, because musical talent was noticed in me at an early age, and I was encouraged to begin composing music when I was only seven years old.  The piano was put into my bedroom, along with a typewriter, and I pretty much took off from there.  I'd always had mood swings, but people around me in those days weren't in tune with "bipolar," and only recently did I discover that this was a part of me that needed to be addressed.

Earlier on, I felt quite embarrassed that I had had certain traumatic experiences around bipolar, but now I am embracing these as a part of who I am.  However, I hope to avoid any kind of dramatization linking creativity to mental illness, a sort of romantic notion that all great artists are in some sense insane, and that therefore if one is insane, one must be some kind of great artist.

I think that certain creative people sort of "use" their mental illnesses as a device to glamorize their personas and kind of get attention for it.  I myself have done that in the past, and I don't want to do it anymore, because I think it works against the attitude I need to maintain in order to continue to accept treatment.

If I start to think that my mental illness is in some sense essential to my creativity, then I get myself into trouble.  So that's the outlook that I'm presently trying to avoid.


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## stargazer (Jul 19, 2005)

This is also an interesting thread.  I've always been a creative person myself--or at least geared toward creative projects.  It's sort of in my upbringing, because musical talent was noticed in me at an early age, and I was encouraged to begin composing music when I was only seven years old.  The piano was put into my bedroom, along with a typewriter, and I pretty much took off from there.  I'd always had mood swings, but people around me in those days weren't in tune with "bipolar," and only recently did I discover that this was a part of me that needed to be addressed.

Earlier on, I felt quite embarrassed that I had had certain traumatic experiences around bipolar, but now I am embracing these as a part of who I am.  However, I hope to avoid any kind of dramatization linking creativity to mental illness, a sort of romantic notion that all great artists are in some sense insane, and that therefore if one is insane, one must be some kind of great artist.

I think that certain creative people sort of "use" their mental illnesses as a device to glamorize their personas and kind of get attention for it.  I myself have done that in the past, and I don't want to do it anymore, because I think it works against the attitude I need to maintain in order to continue to accept treatment.

If I start to think that my mental illness is in some sense essential to my creativity, then I get myself into trouble.  So that's the outlook that I'm presently trying to avoid.


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## LadyDollz (Jul 25, 2005)

*The genetic connection*

portion of article from
Meadows Foundation grant supports bipolar disorder research

' ... Harvard-trained Dr. Michael Escamilla, associate professor of psychiatry and director of the new center, has found general locations of * two genes that carry bipolar disorder. Both genes are on chromosome 18.  ..."*

"Genes are only part of the picture of what causes bipolar disorder, but they are highly significant. Identifying the genes involved also will allow us to better study environmental risk factors that contribute to this illness. *The same gene 'mutation' may cause bipolar disorder in one person and produce a creative genius in another. *

The entire article can be found at:
http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new34-46/meadows.html


Many blessings
Lady Dollz


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## LadyDollz (Jul 25, 2005)

*The genetic connection*

portion of article from
Meadows Foundation grant supports bipolar disorder research

' ... Harvard-trained Dr. Michael Escamilla, associate professor of psychiatry and director of the new center, has found general locations of * two genes that carry bipolar disorder. Both genes are on chromosome 18.  ..."*

"Genes are only part of the picture of what causes bipolar disorder, but they are highly significant. Identifying the genes involved also will allow us to better study environmental risk factors that contribute to this illness. *The same gene 'mutation' may cause bipolar disorder in one person and produce a creative genius in another. *

The entire article can be found at:
http://www.uthscsa.edu/opa/issues/new34-46/meadows.html


Many blessings
Lady Dollz


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## stargazer (Sep 15, 2005)

In regards to my earlier comment, I now think there might be a hint of truth on both sides of the equation.  It may be true that certain creative people romanticize or glamorize their mental illness as some kind of necessary adjunct to their artistic personae, but on the other hand I am noticing more and more that as I calm down and begin to eat and sleep regularly, I do not seem to have the kinds of interesting creative ideas that I associate with feeling "up" or "manic."  

Whenever I do begin to write music again, I quickly get into hyperspace.  Part of this is a natural reaction of excitement over what I'm writing.  But I take it too far.  I start to imagine the audiences and their applause, and the idea of all that adulation distracts me from simply doing the work required to finish composing the piece.

I wish I could find a better balance, but I just don't seem to be doing so.  I've resigned to set this period of my life aside for quiet listening to the ideas of others, because when I begin to generate my own ideas, I stop listening.  Perhaps it's just my mood today, but it seems there is no point of balance, and no in between.  I find myself to be unusually depressed these days.

Hopefully, when I have a better job--which may be soon--I can absorb myself in being of service to others on the job site, and I will not be so depressed.   But it seems I haven't written anything in months, and I find myself wanting to sleep all the time.  I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## stargazer (Sep 15, 2005)

In regards to my earlier comment, I now think there might be a hint of truth on both sides of the equation.  It may be true that certain creative people romanticize or glamorize their mental illness as some kind of necessary adjunct to their artistic personae, but on the other hand I am noticing more and more that as I calm down and begin to eat and sleep regularly, I do not seem to have the kinds of interesting creative ideas that I associate with feeling "up" or "manic."  

Whenever I do begin to write music again, I quickly get into hyperspace.  Part of this is a natural reaction of excitement over what I'm writing.  But I take it too far.  I start to imagine the audiences and their applause, and the idea of all that adulation distracts me from simply doing the work required to finish composing the piece.

I wish I could find a better balance, but I just don't seem to be doing so.  I've resigned to set this period of my life aside for quiet listening to the ideas of others, because when I begin to generate my own ideas, I stop listening.  Perhaps it's just my mood today, but it seems there is no point of balance, and no in between.  I find myself to be unusually depressed these days.

Hopefully, when I have a better job--which may be soon--I can absorb myself in being of service to others on the job site, and I will not be so depressed.   But it seems I haven't written anything in months, and I find myself wanting to sleep all the time.  I'm not sure what to make of it.


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## Lost (Oct 6, 2005)

< tangential thinking, jumps from one thing to the next with no apparent logic or based on the sound of the words or on some idiosyncratic associations, so that the process or conversation is very difficult for anyone else to make sense of.>

That scares me.  I do that very often, when my thoughts are racing, or they are triggered by minor things within a conversation, and other people are left totally bewildered.  Maybe I'm schizophrenic now too...!


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## Lost (Oct 6, 2005)

< tangential thinking, jumps from one thing to the next with no apparent logic or based on the sound of the words or on some idiosyncratic associations, so that the process or conversation is very difficult for anyone else to make sense of.>

That scares me.  I do that very often, when my thoughts are racing, or they are triggered by minor things within a conversation, and other people are left totally bewildered.  Maybe I'm schizophrenic now too...!


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 6, 2005)

Probably not, if that's the only symptom match.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 6, 2005)

Probably not, if that's the only symptom match.


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## stargazer (Oct 7, 2005)

I used to do that a lot myself.  I made sense to me, but to no one else around me.  I was constantly being told that I made no sense, and I couldn't understand why.  Nowadays, at least I make some sense, some of the time.  It gets better.


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## stargazer (Oct 7, 2005)

I used to do that a lot myself.  I made sense to me, but to no one else around me.  I was constantly being told that I made no sense, and I couldn't understand why.  Nowadays, at least I make some sense, some of the time.  It gets better.


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

I'm aware when people aren't following me, it's mostly due to my quick thinking, and also due to my crazy 'tangential' (is that a word?!?!) thought processes!  and a lot of the time even though I know I'm not necessarily being understood I need to talk my thoughts aloud in order to finish developing them and see where they take me...
I have to find some time to look schiz. up now to see what the other symptoms are. any quick links anyone could show me?


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

I'm aware when people aren't following me, it's mostly due to my quick thinking, and also due to my crazy 'tangential' (is that a word?!?!) thought processes!  and a lot of the time even though I know I'm not necessarily being understood I need to talk my thoughts aloud in order to finish developing them and see where they take me...
I have to find some time to look schiz. up now to see what the other symptoms are. any quick links anyone could show me?


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

and Stargazer, your last post made complete sense!  I understood every word!


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

and Stargazer, your last post made complete sense!  I understood every word!


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## stargazer (Oct 8, 2005)

Although I'm only a lay person, it sounds more "manic" than "schiz" to me, and I think Dr. Baxter might agree & elaborate.  

I can relate to both of these experiences:

(1) talking so fast that it is hard for others to follow, despite the coherence of the thoughts being expressed verbally;

& (2) having such a large amount of complex thoughts in such a short period of time that an unusual number of "tangents" emerge while trying to articulate the thoughts, in an effort to ensure that no thought goes unexpressed.  (This effort often fails, and one comes across as incoherent.)

On another level, I think we need to be aware that our "need" to express these thoughts might be a personal need that conflicts with the needs those who are listening.  At worst, it seems as though we think our thoughts are more important than the thoughts of the listener.  Sometimes, in fact, we simply don't listen.  (Or, at least I don't.)

Perhaps we ought to express these elaborate thoughts into a portable tape recorder and thus elude the judgment of the besieged listener??  We might also then discover how it is that we are coming across to the unsuspecting ear.

(Just a thought.)  ;-)


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## stargazer (Oct 8, 2005)

Although I'm only a lay person, it sounds more "manic" than "schiz" to me, and I think Dr. Baxter might agree & elaborate.  

I can relate to both of these experiences:

(1) talking so fast that it is hard for others to follow, despite the coherence of the thoughts being expressed verbally;

& (2) having such a large amount of complex thoughts in such a short period of time that an unusual number of "tangents" emerge while trying to articulate the thoughts, in an effort to ensure that no thought goes unexpressed.  (This effort often fails, and one comes across as incoherent.)

On another level, I think we need to be aware that our "need" to express these thoughts might be a personal need that conflicts with the needs those who are listening.  At worst, it seems as though we think our thoughts are more important than the thoughts of the listener.  Sometimes, in fact, we simply don't listen.  (Or, at least I don't.)

Perhaps we ought to express these elaborate thoughts into a portable tape recorder and thus elude the judgment of the besieged listener??  We might also then discover how it is that we are coming across to the unsuspecting ear.

(Just a thought.)  ;-)


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

no. 2 is definitely me.

I very often judge every angle of every possibility with every possible consequence and it normally happens that all the thoughts are in my head but are totally overwhelming me until I can express them... (and even when I've expressed them, I suffer from clinical indecision -they should make that another mental illness!- and am left with myriad options and possible results in front of me, and clueless as to which way to turn...so it still overwhelms me.)  (I know writing things down would be the best thing to do but it somehow never happens.)

But I put on a good enough act to the world as the happy carefree easy-going type and I don't talk like that to most people.  Only to my good friends whom I can be completely open with.  And no matter how much I'm bursting with uncertainty and confusion, I'm normally extremely perceptive of my listener and can judge when I can be tolerated and when not!  Unless my close friends have been lying to me and find me a complete bore.  Which I hope is not the case.  No. I think I'm confident enough that it's not, coz I also make a good listener and I know when they enjoy our conversations. I also make them laugh a lot during my monologues...so they stay entertained.  most of the time. whatever... enough thinking aloud...

And I like the term "besieged listener"!  lol!!!

And having thought over your post again, no.1 is probably me too. occasionally.


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

no. 2 is definitely me.

I very often judge every angle of every possibility with every possible consequence and it normally happens that all the thoughts are in my head but are totally overwhelming me until I can express them... (and even when I've expressed them, I suffer from clinical indecision -they should make that another mental illness!- and am left with myriad options and possible results in front of me, and clueless as to which way to turn...so it still overwhelms me.)  (I know writing things down would be the best thing to do but it somehow never happens.)

But I put on a good enough act to the world as the happy carefree easy-going type and I don't talk like that to most people.  Only to my good friends whom I can be completely open with.  And no matter how much I'm bursting with uncertainty and confusion, I'm normally extremely perceptive of my listener and can judge when I can be tolerated and when not!  Unless my close friends have been lying to me and find me a complete bore.  Which I hope is not the case.  No. I think I'm confident enough that it's not, coz I also make a good listener and I know when they enjoy our conversations. I also make them laugh a lot during my monologues...so they stay entertained.  most of the time. whatever... enough thinking aloud...

And I like the term "besieged listener"!  lol!!!

And having thought over your post again, no.1 is probably me too. occasionally.


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## stargazer (Oct 8, 2005)

I also can relate to talking in more detailed and elaborate way when among my close friends, with whom I can be completely open.  Because I can't be open with everyone, I "use" my friends in order to express things usually left unexpressed, and gain feedback from them accordingly.  Like you, I put on a fairly good act when in the company of those whom I don't know as well.  So most of my "mania" goes unnoticed.  (Unless, of course, I am having an episode.  In that event, my good friends will advise me of the evidence of the episode, which otherwise might go unnoticed and untreated.  Such is the nature of mania.)

I speak only for myself, of course.


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## stargazer (Oct 8, 2005)

I also can relate to talking in more detailed and elaborate way when among my close friends, with whom I can be completely open.  Because I can't be open with everyone, I "use" my friends in order to express things usually left unexpressed, and gain feedback from them accordingly.  Like you, I put on a fairly good act when in the company of those whom I don't know as well.  So most of my "mania" goes unnoticed.  (Unless, of course, I am having an episode.  In that event, my good friends will advise me of the evidence of the episode, which otherwise might go unnoticed and untreated.  Such is the nature of mania.)

I speak only for myself, of course.


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

I'm a bit scared now to look into "manias" now.  
But Stargazer, it sounds like we have a lot in common.

Although one thing about me is that I'm very very controlled, and no matter how I'm feeling I very often just switch modes when the situation demands it (which is very often the situation) and I totally forget from one minute to the next how I was.
eg and this is a really typical example, I have major argument with my spouse, I think for the thousandth time that I'm wasting my life with him, I should be getting divorced, I feel complete despair at anything possibly improving, and then someone phones to do with, say, an urgent business matter.  I'll completely switch modes, and deal with them, joke if necessary and very often completely forget how depressed I was feeling just a minute ago.  And I think I've become that way coz of my horrible teenage years where I constantly switched instantly from being sullen, bitter, repressed and plain miserable at home, to bright, bubbly, confident, and happy when with my friends in school.
Anyway, the point here was that I control myself completely, so I'm not really given to 'episodes'.
and I should I confess my control is only there for other people, so that they shouldn't think badly of me.  if it's just me at home with my spouse, and he's done s/th that infuriates me, my control goes completely out the window. also more recently with crying, sometimes I just can't stop the tears.  altho I think it's healthy for me to cry these days since I didn't cry for so long when I really should have done and I had everything to cry for...
whatever... that's probably enough tangential thinking for now!


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

I'm a bit scared now to look into "manias" now.  
But Stargazer, it sounds like we have a lot in common.

Although one thing about me is that I'm very very controlled, and no matter how I'm feeling I very often just switch modes when the situation demands it (which is very often the situation) and I totally forget from one minute to the next how I was.
eg and this is a really typical example, I have major argument with my spouse, I think for the thousandth time that I'm wasting my life with him, I should be getting divorced, I feel complete despair at anything possibly improving, and then someone phones to do with, say, an urgent business matter.  I'll completely switch modes, and deal with them, joke if necessary and very often completely forget how depressed I was feeling just a minute ago.  And I think I've become that way coz of my horrible teenage years where I constantly switched instantly from being sullen, bitter, repressed and plain miserable at home, to bright, bubbly, confident, and happy when with my friends in school.
Anyway, the point here was that I control myself completely, so I'm not really given to 'episodes'.
and I should I confess my control is only there for other people, so that they shouldn't think badly of me.  if it's just me at home with my spouse, and he's done s/th that infuriates me, my control goes completely out the window. also more recently with crying, sometimes I just can't stop the tears.  altho I think it's healthy for me to cry these days since I didn't cry for so long when I really should have done and I had everything to cry for...
whatever... that's probably enough tangential thinking for now!


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

another difference though I've noticed is, there are a lot of people whom I know, and who know me.  or who think they know me.  I really have a definitive split with all my relationships.  There are 2 types of people.

1. Those where I'm happy, confident and never talking about any of my real issues, altho sometimes they disclose their issues to me.  They're the ones I don't trust enough to open up to, or I just think they're not complex enough to understand me so why bother... And that applies to most of my friends.  And they don't really know how tormented a person I really am.  They see my happy side, which normally starts out as an act, but very often ends up putting me in a better mood.

2. The very select few whom I am real with.  and I can list them on one hand.  only with them, can I just be myself and stop with the acting.  so it's always a relief to speak to them. 

and the truth is there is a third category where the people are the particularly discerning type, but for some reason or another I can't trust them enough to be me and reveal my deep dark secrets to them, so with them I'm wary and occasionally nervous and uncomfortable talking to them.  thankfully they are few and far between.


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## Lost (Oct 8, 2005)

another difference though I've noticed is, there are a lot of people whom I know, and who know me.  or who think they know me.  I really have a definitive split with all my relationships.  There are 2 types of people.

1. Those where I'm happy, confident and never talking about any of my real issues, altho sometimes they disclose their issues to me.  They're the ones I don't trust enough to open up to, or I just think they're not complex enough to understand me so why bother... And that applies to most of my friends.  And they don't really know how tormented a person I really am.  They see my happy side, which normally starts out as an act, but very often ends up putting me in a better mood.

2. The very select few whom I am real with.  and I can list them on one hand.  only with them, can I just be myself and stop with the acting.  so it's always a relief to speak to them. 

and the truth is there is a third category where the people are the particularly discerning type, but for some reason or another I can't trust them enough to be me and reveal my deep dark secrets to them, so with them I'm wary and occasionally nervous and uncomfortable talking to them.  thankfully they are few and far between.


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## stargazer (Oct 9, 2005)

That third type of person is the type that scares me a little bit, because I never know what there going to do with the information they've discerned so unusually well.  I know the type you mean, and I also feel uncomfortable around them.

I also identify with the "mode-switching."  I'm the same way, and I have been thinking about this a lot lately, in fact.  It somewhat concerns me, because it suggests that I don't know my real center, my real feeling, or my real position.  It's odd that I can switch modes, or even moods, so rapidly, and so well.

But in another way, that mode-switching can be a good thing, in that one does not carry the effect of a certain event to the next event, so as to relate in a fresh and new way to the new event.  I think this is a healthy kind of "compartmentalizing."  Also, it is akin to the teachings of certain Eastern philosophies, in that it involves "being in the moment," and not reacting according to a past to which one has not yet let go, nor to an expectation of an unknown future. 

I've only had a single manic episode in my entire life.  It was about a year and a half ago, but it lasted a good six weeks or more.  I'm not sure what to make of it myself.  Dr. Baxter and others on this board are aware of this, and I've composed many posts concerning it.  Part of why I'm here is to try and figure it all out, or at least come to terms with it.

Despite my alleged mania, I will probably always be a highly charged and driven person.  That's just my nature.  It seems best for me to accept it, and then try to channel it wisely.


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## stargazer (Oct 9, 2005)

That third type of person is the type that scares me a little bit, because I never know what there going to do with the information they've discerned so unusually well.  I know the type you mean, and I also feel uncomfortable around them.

I also identify with the "mode-switching."  I'm the same way, and I have been thinking about this a lot lately, in fact.  It somewhat concerns me, because it suggests that I don't know my real center, my real feeling, or my real position.  It's odd that I can switch modes, or even moods, so rapidly, and so well.

But in another way, that mode-switching can be a good thing, in that one does not carry the effect of a certain event to the next event, so as to relate in a fresh and new way to the new event.  I think this is a healthy kind of "compartmentalizing."  Also, it is akin to the teachings of certain Eastern philosophies, in that it involves "being in the moment," and not reacting according to a past to which one has not yet let go, nor to an expectation of an unknown future. 

I've only had a single manic episode in my entire life.  It was about a year and a half ago, but it lasted a good six weeks or more.  I'm not sure what to make of it myself.  Dr. Baxter and others on this board are aware of this, and I've composed many posts concerning it.  Part of why I'm here is to try and figure it all out, or at least come to terms with it.

Despite my alleged mania, I will probably always be a highly charged and driven person.  That's just my nature.  It seems best for me to accept it, and then try to channel it wisely.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 9, 2005)

I think that's an important point: You are who you are -- that may be partly a "disorder" but you are far more than that.

Tauri Hall has a short article on the distinction in the case of eating disorders: see http://blossom.psychlinks.ca/more-than-this-disorder.html .


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 9, 2005)

I think that's an important point: You are who you are -- that may be partly a "disorder" but you are far more than that.

Tauri Hall has a short article on the distinction in the case of eating disorders: see http://blossom.psychlinks.ca/more-than-this-disorder.html .


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## stargazer (Oct 10, 2005)

So far I've only had time to skim the article, but it looks good.  I agree that to identify oneself too closely with one's disorder can cause indignity and loss of self-worth.  I've bookmarked the article, and I will take a look at it a little later on.  This week I am starting a new job (music teacher, grades K-8, at a small school district in the South Bay.)  I need to zero in on that for a while.  I'm also music-directing a children's theatre program there, so it will be quite engaging.  Hopefully I can pull this off without having another episode.


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## stargazer (Oct 10, 2005)

So far I've only had time to skim the article, but it looks good.  I agree that to identify oneself too closely with one's disorder can cause indignity and loss of self-worth.  I've bookmarked the article, and I will take a look at it a little later on.  This week I am starting a new job (music teacher, grades K-8, at a small school district in the South Bay.)  I need to zero in on that for a while.  I'm also music-directing a children's theatre program there, so it will be quite engaging.  Hopefully I can pull this off without having another episode.


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## stargazer (Oct 24, 2005)

Regarding my last post, I do have a better job now, but earlier tonight I experienced a professional rejection having to do with the musical I wrote.  This has prompted much thought, and discussions with others who are involved both in treatment and in the arts.  So I feel compelled to post once again, while these thoughts are fresh in my mind.

I decided to write a musical play while having a manic episode.  The decision to write the musical was a result of that episode.  I would not have begun writing the musical had I not have been having the episdoe.  Now, the nature of the episode was such that I did not _know_ I was having an episode.  Therefore, I resisted the suggestions of my therapist and psychiatrist that I was at all "manic."  In fact, the very idea that I was being regarded as mentally ill at a time when I thought I was at my most creative and productive was something that I found highly offensive.  I could not understand why the therapist and psychiatrist would not even _listen_ to the music before judging me to be crazy.  It seemed as though they viewed my desire to compose music as only a part of my delusion, and this angered me.

However, as time passed and I began to recover from the episode, I slowly realized that a lot of the content of the piece was so tainted by the mania in which it had been conceived, that the product itself actually _did_ appear to be rather insane.  So, as recovery progressed and sanity returned, I began to rewrite the same piece laboriously and repeatedly, continually seeking the support of other writers, musicians, and theatre people. 

After ten such revisions, some people now like the script; more people tell me the music is good; and most people don't tell me anything at all.  It's hard for me to believe that anything conceived in mania could be of artistic merit, but it's even harder for me to let go of a project that has involved so much work and sacrifice on my part. 

I don't know that creativity and mental illness are linked.  What I _do_ know is that, had I not been mentally ill, I would never have gotten the idea into my head that I was a person who could, or should, write a musical.  I would have continued to go to work in the morning, teach my music classes to the gradeschool kids, play piano in church on Sunday, and lead a quiet life.  Life might have remained somewhat boring and uneventful, but I would not have forsaken my emotional and financial stability for the sake of an artistic endeavor of dubious value.

So that's all I know: my personal experience.  I have since met many people with serious mental health conditions who have found meaning and purpose in their lives by involving themselves in artistic efforts, such as poetry.  Whether the quality of their art is good or not is almost irrelevant; the point is that they have found an identity in a society that has in a sense made them outcasts.  

Although many of these people consign themselves to a life on disability, I personally have not made that choice.  After a long and arduous recovery, and while still in treatment, I am working again as a music teacher for a small public school district, and as a musical director for a children's theatre.  But my entire orientation toward life has changed as a result of that episode.  My spirituality is different, and my values are not the same as they were when I wrote this piece.  So, even after all the contrived corrections and efforts to remove its insanity, it does not in its current condition reflect the person who I now am.  It is almost as though it was not written by me, but by some other entity.

And yet it sits there, a full libretto and a complete musical score, still begging for production and recognition, while its composer-librettist regards it as little more than a product of his insanity.  Perhaps it will continue to sit there as a kind of monument to the person who I was, the person who I never want to be again.  Or perhaps someone will pick it up and produce it, however posthumously.  All I know is that unless I have another episode, I am unlikely ever to write another musical.  I have been unable, in 52 years of living, to equate my creativity with sanity. 

This doesn't mean that there isn't hope.  Many artists and writers live balanced, healthy lives, putting their art into perspective and context, and becoming quite successful with it.  Perhaps I need not be bound by my past experience, and I might find a way to write again.  Perhaps my work will then be more valuable.  I'm not giving up.  But what I need to say is that the association between creativity and mental illness cannot possibly be entirely mythological.  Despite the romanticization, the images of a tortured Beethoven sublimating his frustration through brilliant symphonies, and so on and so forth, there has got to be a kernel of truth to this notion.   If there isn't, then I personally have no way of explaining what happened to me in 2004.


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## ThatLady (Oct 24, 2005)

I don't know about the connection between creativity and mental illness. Perhaps, such an association exists; perhaps, one does not. However, I do know that those who write poetry, or music, or novels, or simply tell stories in their minds are artists. That, I'd think, covers just about all of us, at one time or another. The poetry doesn't have to be profound. The music doesn't have to be shattering, nor does the novel have to be on the best-seller list for the artistry in them to exist. The artistry exists within the heart of the person who created the art; therefore, their creation is imbued with that artistry.

You've come down a long path, and your journey has changed you. Although the musical play may have been written by the person you were, as opposed to the person you now are, the music still sings in your heart. Let it sing without question. Give it voice and it will live.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 24, 2005)

stargazer said:
			
		

> And yet it sits there, a full libretto and a complete musical score, still begging for production and recognition, while its composer-librettist regards it as little more than a product of his insanity. Perhaps it will continue to sit there as a kind of monument to the person who I was, the person who I never want to be again. Or perhaps someone will pick it up and produce it, however posthumously. All I know is that unless I have another episode, I am unlikely ever to write another musical. I have been unable, in 52 years of living, to equate my creativity with sanity.


But of course, there are a couple of logical errors here, stargazer. 

1. Whether or not your work is ever "picked up" and produced for the stage, it exists as a creative work which examines, in a humorous way, some of the blurry lines between "sanity" and "insanity", or between "normal" and "'abnormal". I haven't heard the music yet but remember I did read the script. There are many creative works that never see public performance and many others which are not seen as meriting the necessary financial investment until long after the artist's death. This is not a measure of worth but one of popularity and consumerism - and sometimes not even that but only one of the estimate of potential popularity as assessed by those (usually conservative) people who make the decision to promote or not to promote a new idea. Look at the world of television and movies: For every even slightly new and creative idea, those industries produce countless imitators, apparently in the belief that if we liked one story about X we will love 10 stories that are more or less the same.

2. You are also confused about the link between mania and creativity, I think. I don't think mania in itself creates creativity. I think the tendencies toward grandiosity during a manic episode give the creator almost unlimited confidence. The ability or capacity to be creative was there all along but until your manic episode you would likely have pushed it aside for all sorts of logical and practical reasons or to give higher priority to more mundane tasks. If you consider the history of the creative arts, it is quite remarkable how closely linked are depression and hypomania to creative output. Beyond the self-confidence factor, I think this also reflects the intensity of focus and of the emotions that drive the creative process, which are often related to the mood state of the creator at the time. Perhaps that's why so many of the most memorable popular songs are about sadness and loss or about new found love -- the inetnsity of the feelings which accompany those experiences give rise to creativity. It is a rare person who can sit down on a day-to-day basis and knock out novels or songs like an assembly line.


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## stargazer (Oct 24, 2005)

________________
David, thank you for elevating then level of communication up another notch here.  This is helpful toward my clarifying this issue within myself.

For the record, I did _not_ remember that you had read the script.  The last I recall is that you had begun it, but had not yet finished it.  So I had never received an assessment of it from you until now.  Although in first reading your reply, I was a bit puzzled by the observation that there were some gaps in my logical reasoning here, I now have re-read your reply, and I see your point of view.  I guess what I had failed to state was my long-standing (if irrational) belief that a work of art barely exists without a listener, a reader, an audience, or a viewer.  Whether it is a painting, a play, a symphony, or a novel; the creative endeavor is not fulfilled until it reaches an audience base and, ultimately, moves those people in some way.  

However, I do see the illogic of that.  What you are suggesting is actually a higher and more transcendent view of Art.  It's true: I did write a complete musical play, for the first time in almost two decades of deferring to prohibitive practicalities, so to speak.  It does exist, however unknown.  It is also true, and telling, that even if "picked up," that doesn't serve to validate its artistic worth, especially in the conservative and more-or-less philistine society in which we find ourselves these days.  So thank you for reminding me of these realities: I will take this as a compliment, and leave it at that.

About the link between mania and creativity, I don't feel that I am quite as confused as you might think.  I'm simply failing to express myself clearly on what seems a complex issue.  There is, as you pointed it out, a difference between creative ability and creative output.  I'm already aware of that distinction, and I did try to say that in the "mania," the creative product was not nearly as good as it might have been had I decided to "create" while I had all my wits about me.  I probably failed to communicate that I fully acknowledge that it was the grandiosity of the mania that caused me suddenly to acquire the "unlimited confidence" that motivated me to proceed with this project.  So I am not equating mania with creativity--at least I do not mean to do so.

What I am equating is the mania with my creative output, just as you suggest the true link to be.  I would be a liar not to admit that I had always been a creative person, and an artistically inclined individual, since early childhood.  But what I have yet to access is that part of me that believes that I can produce artistic work of value while at the same time functioning in mainstream society.  My skepticism toward my ability to do so is based entirely on my past experience, not on my view of my potential, and not according to faith or hope.

In a way, you who don't even really know me have more faith in my creative ability than I do myself.  You've probably encountered other similar personalities in your field.  So, I am somewhat painfully aware that I am going to need to change lifelong patterns and belief-systems in order to fulfill myself artistically and at the same time be a human being who functions well and has integrated himself within society.

About the music, I'll send you a CD in the mail.  I might need to be refreshed as to your postal address, and you may PM me on that one if you like.  Thank you for your interest--I know you are a busy man.

(Oh, and ThatLady, thank you for your comments as well.  I didn't mean to ignore them, but I am on limited time at a school computer in between classes at my new teaching job.  Still, I wanted to post right away, lest this all gets forgotten in a few days.  Right now it all seems so vitally important, for some reason--probably related to last night's rejection.  I'm considering discontinuing my web site as well as my newsletter--they are reminding me in an ugly emotional way of my earlier grandiosity, and perhaps they are perpetuating that tendency within me.)[/i]


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 24, 2005)

I actually enjoy that newsletter )


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## stargazer (Oct 25, 2005)

Perhaps I am over-reacting.


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## stargazer (Dec 28, 2005)

I was just going back to my lengthy reply above.  Sorry to have been so long-winded.  I had a hard time following it myself, even though I wrote it.

Anyway, I think I was having trouble expressing a simple point.  What I was trying to say was: I'm aware that the mania does not guarantee creativity; however, I have trouble prioritizing a creative endeavor unless motivated by that "mania."  Perhaps this is what you (David) meant as well?

In other words, I seem to need that sense of "unlimited confidence" in order to get anything off the ground.  My hope is that I can overcome this tendency, and find a calmer pocket for Art in my life that will not lead to avoidance of the more essential priorities (food, sleep, etc.) 

That's all I meant.[/i]


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 18, 2006)

*Bipolar Creativity*

Bipolar Creativity
March 17, 2006 
by Sandra Kiume 

An article from Renee Hopkins Callahan of the IdeaFlow blog links to studies about children of bipolar parents being more creative, and other studies that illustrate enhanced creativity in people with bipolar, and makes some great points in her discussion of them:



> Terence Ketter, MD, said he believes "bipolar patients? creativity stems from their mobilizing energy that results from negative emotion to initiate some sort of solution to their problems. In this case, discontent is the mother of invention," he said.
> 
> The researchers also found a link between the length of a bipolar child?s illness and creativity: the longer a child was sick or manic, the lower the creativity score. It makes sense, said Kiki Chang, MD, a study coauthor, that this illness could, over time, erode one?s creativity. "After awhile you aren?t able to function and you can?t access your creativity," he explained.
> 
> ...


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## stargazer (Mar 18, 2006)

I almost replied last night when I got home, but I had to bite my tongue.? This all looks great, and I'll probably order the book.? This passage, however, struck an uncomfortable chord with me, only because of my personal experience, about which I am still to some extent bitter:

"It fascinates me because my personal experience has been that there?s sometimes a fine line between creativity and mood states that most professionals would call disordered. The line can be so fine that it?s down to whether the expressions are positive or negative ? if positive, call it creativity; if negative, call it personality disorder. ?I also wonder if specific training in creativity skills might help bipolar people whose symptoms don?t currently manifest themselves as the more positive creative traits. Perhaps if they knew what to do with their innate creativity, these folks would be able to live more on the positive than the negative side of creativity."

Some of us did develop at an early age a specific training in a certain type of creativity skill.? In my case, the training was in the piano.? However, one's ability to play the piano doesn't manifest when he's sitting having a psychiatric evaluation.? I sometimes wonder if they knew I was a competent musician once in that office, they might not have locked me up against my will.

After all, the only reason I had approached the building in the first place was to ask directions to the nearby Department of Motor Vehicles.? When I found out the building was some sort of psychiatric institute, I naively asked if I could have a psychiatric evaluation, only because I was curious.? They agreed, and midway through the evaluation asked me if I had health insurance.? I said, yes, I have Kaiser.? At that, before I knew it, I was given a shot of Haldol 5 and Ativan 2, called a "5150" -- as though I were a danger to myself, and others--and after the mandatory three days, they gave me 6 more days in a place called the Cognitive Behavioral Unit, until Kaiser got tired of paying for it.

So I have to be very careful.? This forum is safe enough, and I like you, Dr. Baxter.? But my lifelong fascination with psychology and psychiatry can get me into trouble if I use it the wrong way.? I lost nine days of my life once because I walked into the lobby of a Behavioral Health Center to ask for directions.? During those nine days, I could have been sitting on the bench of a baby grand piano at the restaurant, and no one would have thought I was nuts.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 18, 2006)

First, I want to make it clear that I don't necessarily agree with the comments in the cited article. As I often do, I posted the article because I thought it was an interesting point of view that might stimulate thought and discussion related to this thread. In this case, I'm still considering how much merit the idea of "positive" vs. "negative" has in this context.

Second, I want to make it clear that the article is discussing some comments by Dr. Terence Ketter. The book by Kay Redfield Jameson (Touched With Fire: Manic-Depressive Illness and the Artistic Temperament[url]) is not related to those comments but is offered as a title on the subject well-worth reading - and that recommendation I do agree with. The author also suffered from bipolar disorder and thus had very personal experience with the issue.


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