# Long term effects of spanking



## David Baxter PhD (Mar 3, 2008)

Spare the Rod?
By Claudia Kalb, _Newsweek_ 
Feb 28, 2008

_Spanking may lead to aggression and sexual problems later in life, says a new study. So why do so many parents still believe in it?_

It's a topic that riles up emotions and opinions the way few others do in the contentious world of parenting philosophies. Spanking. Should you? How could you? Is it right? Is it wrong? Online message boards are flooded with messages on the topic: the confessions, the wrath, the full-on support. "Yes, I've done it, even though I always swore I wouldn't," writes one. "Sometimes spanking works best," responds another. And then there are the vocal opponents. "Spanking," writes one, "is abuse." 

The spanking wrangle has a long history in scientific research, and new findings to be reported today at the _American Psychological Association Summit Conference on Violence and Abuse in Relationships_ will intensify the debate yet again. In a provocative paper, Murray Straus, co-director of the Family Research Laboratory at the University of New Hampshire, says that spanking kids increases their risk of sexual problems as adults. Straus, a longtime researcher in the field, analyzed four prior studies and found that teens or young adults whose parents used corporal punishment were more likely to coerce dating partners into having sex or to engage in risky or masochistic sex. 

One stat: the 25 percent of university students who ranked highest on a corporal punishment scale insisted on sex without a condom, compared with the 12.5 percent of university students who scored lowest on the scale. Another: 75 percent of college students who'd been spanked a lot said they were sexually aroused by masochistic sex, compared with 40 percent of students who were never spanked. "It's so consistent with so many other studies showing harmful side effects," says Straus. "It didn't surprise me."

The new study has its weaknesses, but so does just about every other paper in the field. For starters, you can't study spanking in the randomized double-blind way you can a medication. It would be ethically inappropriate to divide a bunch of kids into two groups, spank some, spare others and then compare how they fare 10 or 20 years down the road. And double-blind? Impossible to disguise spanking in a dummy pill. So there's no way to absolutely prove cause and effect. The study also relies on students' own recollections of their childhood experiences. Straus says he controlled for people covering up mistreatment by their parents. On the other hand, the students could also have exaggerated. "It's possible," says Strauss, "though I don't find it too plausible."

Elizabeth Gershoff, a researcher at University of Michigan's School of Social Work, says Straus's findings are consistent with the literature. "I have every faith in his research," Gershoff says. "The more children are spanked, the more aggressive they are and the more likely they are to engage in delinquent or at-risk behaviors." Sexual behavior is just one example of that behavior, she says. One lesson kids learn, says Gershoff, is that if you have the power in a relationship, you can use aggression to get your way. Another: "[Kids] may learn that sometimes there's pain and fear involved in loving relationships." 

Gershoff, who published a large analysis of the spanking research in 2002 and has just completed a new paper about spanking in the context of human rights and public policy, says spanking may work to gets kids' attention, but it doesn't teach them how to behave appropriately in the long-term. A little tap once in a while is going to have minimal risk, but the risk increases "the more you do it and the harder you do it," she says. "I think everything we know from the research is that it doesn't work and it might have negative side effects."

Not every scientist agrees. Robert Larzelere, a human development researcher at Oklahoma State University, says that "conditional" or "backup" spanking in two-to-six-year-old kids can be useful. The spanking needs to be nonabusive (two open-hand swats on the behind from a parent who's not "angrily out of control") and it needs to be used not as a first line of response but as a backup to other kinds of discipline, like timeouts, grounding and reasoning. "Under these conditions, the evidence suggests that it's effective," says Larzelere. Too often, he says, spanking research lumps corporal punishment into one big group, failing to draw the line between overly severe punishment and a couple of taps on the buttocks. His conclusion: conditional spanking isn't more harmful than any other kind of discipline. The key, he says, is that parents need to discriminate between "inappropriate and appropriate use." 

No single study is likely to stop the practice of spanking. The Bible says, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him," and plenty of Americans interpret the passage literally. The Christian group Focus on the Family, for example, says there's no excuse for abusing a child, but spanking is OK when it's done right. "We believe that appropriate, disciplinary spanking, used in the context of a warm, nurturing parent-child relationship, is not abusive or harmful to the emotional well-being of the child," says Bill Maier, Focus on the Family's vice president and psychologist in residence, in an e-mail.

But researchers like Straus, who calls himself a humanist, say children need to be protected. Nobody knows exactly how many people spank their kids, but in one survey Straus found that more than 90 percent of Americans have spanked their toddlers, and while not all will turn out to have dysfunctional sex lives or be aggressive adults, he and others are worried about those who might. 

Should there be a policy against it? The American Academy of Pediatrics goes as far as to say that parents should be encouraged to use other methods of discipline. Twenty-two states, meanwhile, still allow spanking in schools. And while there's plenty of grass-roots effort to end it (the group End Physical Punishment of Children, or EPOCH-USA, is holding its annual SpankOut Day on April 30), many Americans are wary of taking too radical a step. When Sally Lieber, an assemblywoman in Silicon Valley, introduced a bill last year that would ban corporal punishment in her state, the public let her know that they didn't want the government messing with their parental rights. "It obviously touched a nerve," says Lieber. "It was like being in the eye of giant cultural hurricane." A hurricane that shows no signs of dissipating.


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## rosedragon (Mar 3, 2008)

> that if you have the power in a relationship, you can use aggression to get your way. Another: "[Kids] may learn that sometimes there's pain and fear involved in loving relationships."



My mother hit her children if we cry, to stop us from crying. More we cry, more hard she will hit us. She ever hit me with a brush so hard that accidentally it broke and wound me. Or sink my head to bathtub (painful).
For an asian I'm quiet aggressive that I'm the one who ask guy to be my boyfriend also invite him to my bed. But I don't like risking, when he start to ask unsafe sex I'm avoiding him and it was one of my reasons to break. I'm also aggressive on doing what I want to do/ my believes.


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## braveheart (Mar 3, 2008)

The effects of threats of hitting, and consequent severe anxiety, and lack of intimacy and so forth. They missed that out.


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## Mari (Mar 3, 2008)

"





> He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him,"



Although I can not locate it at the moment that quote in my bible is slightly different. Some people interpret it to mean to use the rod the way a shepherd does - to gently guide the sheep, or in this case the child, away from danger. Parenting is not always easy and although I do not think that spanking is a good idea I can sympathize with parents who occasionally lose their cool and give a child one good smack on the rear.  My youngest son can drive anyone to distraction. Someone also mentioned to me that spanking was probably not a good choice because if like me they have three boys it might work when they are little but you better have another alternative for when they are over six feet tall.  Mari


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 3, 2008)

Mari said:


> Although I can not locate it at the moment that quote in my bible is slightly different. Some people interpret it to mean to use the rod the way a shepherd does - to gently guide the sheep, or in this case the child, away from danger.



Interesting. I had never heard that interpretation but it makes a lot of sense to me. That is, after all, the true role of a parent - to guide and teach and nurture, not to punish and dominate.



Mari said:


> Someone also mentioned to me that spanking was probably not a good choice because if like me they have three boys it might work when they are little but you better have another alternative for when they are over six feet tall.



Also an excellent point.


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## Aladdin (Mar 3, 2008)

My father did spank me good my brother on the other hand they did not spank my little brother and today there is a big difference between us.He wants everything as he wants it and have no respect for other people and if he is in trouble i had to help him out of it.

spanking is take away in our schools a few years ago and now there is no dicepline anymore our standerd fell to rock bodem we agressive behivour in our schhools and at home.I spoke to my children and if they dont lisen i sent them to their room or i take somethings away,like no ice cream for the day but if i had to talk 3 times over the same things i put them over my lap and spank them on their bottoms with my open hand.then i make them sit and talk to them and tell them why i spank them and that i love them.

their mother dont spank them and believe it wrong but she pinch them and trow things at them and if she did spank them  they had to go to their room with out talking to them.

everyone talk about researce but did anyone do a researce of our childrens behaviour when spanking was in and now that spanking is out.

i believe a good spanking on its time is good medicine but it you had to take care how you do it. some people are crazy and dont deserve any  children and that people is giving spanking and parrenthood a bad name,if you one of them then please do not spank your children.

I suffer a bit to explain myself in English I hope you understood what I'm trying to explain. 

[Do people still believe in their Bible?. Then what do your Bible tell you]


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 3, 2008)

> everyone talk about researce but did anyone do a researce of our childrens behaviour when spanking was in and now that spanking is out.



Yes. That's part of what this research is looking at.


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## Aladdin (Mar 3, 2008)

Mari   said:
			
		

> Although I can not locate it at the moment that quote in my bible is slightly different. Some people interpret it to mean to use the rod the way a shepherd does - to gently guide the sheep, or in this case the child, away from danger.





			
				Mari said:
			
		

> Someone also mentioned to me that spanking was probably not a good choice because if like me they have three boys it might work when they are little but you better have another alternative for when they are over six feet tall



if a sheep dont lisen you also spank it but in a sense you are right,you can spank it with love and talk to it and it will start following you and lisen to your voice but as soon as you broke some things over it head or back its starting to run away from you and it is the same with children.

you had to bend the tree while its still young but if try it when the tree is big you gonna brake it.learn them from little whats right and wrong and you dont have to brake them when their big and in the most cases they brake you.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 3, 2008)

If we're going to quote, what about "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?


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## Cat Dancer (Mar 3, 2008)

Being spanked only made me feel upset and angry and resentful. I don't even remember anything of why I got spanked. It's humiliating.


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## lallieth (Mar 3, 2008)

> # Proverb 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
> # Proverb 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
> # Proverb 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
> # Proverb 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
> # Proverb 29:15 Thy rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


Oh my




> Spare the Rod?
> Statistics on corporal punishment may encourage you to spare the rod.
> 
> Psychology Today Magazine, Sep/Oct 2002
> ...


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## Retired (Mar 3, 2008)

Spanking is simply a big strong person beating up on a smaller weaker person.   It's unlikely the spanker would spank a bigger, stronger person.


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## Halo (Mar 3, 2008)

Well said Steve :2thumbs:


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## Aladdin (Mar 3, 2008)

you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?
This is a good one and i like that saying
spanking has it up and downs if i was spank for reason it learn me to lisen and learn dissepline but if i was spank when i did nothing than it make you to get angry,thats the piont i try to make spanking is a good thing if you not over do it and not use it as you first opsion,and i triy not to punish my children when im very angry.but i dont believe to lock them up in their room or to pinch them,some people lock their children in their room when dark with out light and mess  up a child completly.
It will help if you give some guidelines how to punish children ,like sent them to their room for time or tike away their icecream.im a single parent and i tried to rise my children the best i can.the big thing is i spank them after a lot of talk and then it is like 4-5 flat hands on their behind.Most of the time they have me in their pocket.
But how do you spank them if they look with big eyes up to you.
to talk about spanking and punishment but sometimes it is not easy  it stayes a treat.

The best parens you get that is exsperts how to rise children and how to punish them is the people who dont have children.the best sportman is sitting on the side.


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## lallieth (Mar 3, 2008)

Alladin

Why do you not talk with your children first instead of spanking then talking.


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## MDH (Mar 24, 2008)

Because if you don't mind me saying, some people like to shoot first and ask questions later.

Honestly, trying to make something so incivil into a civil behavior is just asking for it for me.

It's asking to turn your kids into honestly stupid people. Blinding them to what's truly bad in the world and allowing themselves to be victimized (or victimize other people) in later life

So far I've seen so much justification for what basically comes down to uncivil and unecessary behavior I could write two books (and a half, each with 600 pages and a small font size) about it. People don't want to face the truth so they candy it up.


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## Stompgal (Aug 4, 2008)

My parents hit me when I was younger, most recently seven years ago. We came home from holiday and I wanted to go back into the house immediately but my dad asked me to carry some luggage into my house. Because I didn't want to, I swore to myself and my dad hit me. I told him I didn't like it, he apologised and hasn't smacked me since.

When I was 18, I became verbally and physically aggressive towards my parents due to a mental illness. In October 2005, my dad had to look after me and my younger brother while my mum and sister were on holiday in Ibiza. A few hours before my dad picked them up from the airport, he asked me to put my plate and cutlery into the dishwasher. I refused, but he let out an almighty, "YEEEEESSS!" because he was furious. He then told me that he'd had enough of looking after me all week and the next thing I knew, he grabbed the frying pan out of the dishwasher and threatened to hit me with it, saying that it'd "f***ing hurt" and he was going to kill me. I even felt like calling the police, but I didn't because I knew my dad had to pick up my mum and sister from the airport. When he picked them up, I told my mum about the threat.

The next couple of months were brutal. I hit my dad in the chest and shouted at him because I felt that he grabbed me while carrying me down the stairs to my bedroom. It was also lunchtime and I was sent to my room for calling my mum something rude. The next day my dad couldn't go to work because his chest was still hurting from where I'd hit him. I felt very guilty about it. I also threatened to strangle my dad with a belt because his snoring kept me awake. 

One Saturday, I was waiting for a bus to go to Cwmbran with my mum. I may have shouted at her a lot that morning so at the bus stop, she told me to behave otherwise we wouldn't go to Cwmbran. I involuntary yelled because I felt that my mum had treated me like a child. She walked away from me, leaving me at the bus stop alone. I screamed at her to come back, but she just walked off completely ignoring me. In the end, I caught up with her, shouted at her and tried pushing her off the pavement. When we got home, I spat at her and nearly threw a book at her. She got very upset and phoned my dad, asking him to come home soon (he was at Barry Island with my brother). When my dad arrived, mum explained to him what had happened. later that day, I was admitted to a local mental health hospital for three days and I didn't like it.

During the Christmas holidays, I hit my dad yet again because he asked me to calm down. He soon drove to my grandparents' house to spend the night with them. I became depressed and when he came home the next day, I hit him again. My mum called the police and I was scared because I thought they were going to arrest me. When the police came, they gave me a warning and I never hit my parents since. 

The above paragraphs really prove that what goes around, comes around...


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## poohbear (Aug 5, 2008)

As a parent (who was abused as a child), I have SUCH a difficult time controlling my temper.  It has taken me years to stop thinking of spanking a child, first off.  I really do try other means of punishment first.  And to be honest, it has been months since I have spanked any of my three sons.  My three yr old has gotten a few smacks on the bottom, but only when in immediate danger (running into traffic, or away in public).  I don't think it will be used ever again in my household.  It was a hard habit to break.

I still have a TREMENDOUS amount to learn about parenting.  I am learning how to be a better one very day.  Kids don't come with handbooks, you know.  But, I have come to understand WHY my parents beat us.  They didn't know any better.  They had no clue.  These days, the ill-efects of corporal punishment are well documented.  50 years ago, it was safe to drive 50 miles an hour with an infant on your lap and no seatblet!  The times are changing.  We have to understand and try to forgive our parents for being ignorant.

This does not excuse violence, however.  Beating your child simply because you can, or because you want to discipline and have neglected to try any other means is simply wrong.  Beating your child into a coma is wrong. Leaving bruises and welts, purposely avoiding bony areas so as to not leave marks, using brushes (or hangars or spoons, belts, etc) is wrong. Leaving a handprint on a face that stays for almost a week (and then lying about it, or making you lie about it) is dead wrong.  My parents did this many times, and for THAT, I am angry.  It was uncalled for. It was abusive.  It was reckless.  And it DID instill in me the feeling that I could overcome with violence.

I hope that I have stopped in enough time for my kids to heal.  I hope that when they have children, that they are healthy disciplinarians. 

 And I  hope they forgive me.--Poohbear


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## Stompgal (Aug 7, 2008)

poohbear said:


> My three yr old has gotten a few smacks on the bottom, but only when in immediate danger (running into traffic, or away in public).



My advice to you, poohbear, would be instead of smacking your three-year-old son (he's still very young) if he runs into the road, I suggest you give him a firm hug whilst lifting him out of danger and say something such as, "Don't run into the road. It's dangerous." That's a more positive way to deal with the situation.


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## Daniel (Aug 7, 2008)

> That's a more positive way to deal with the situation.



Of course, the concern in such a life-or-death situation is not what is most positive but what is most effective.    And unless there is hard evidence that shows a more effective (or least ineffective) method for stopping children of a certain age from running into the road, the debate will continue, e.g. a typical parent reaction:



> San Francisco mom Shelli Rawlings-Fein said she generally opposes spanking, but her 19-month-old daughter still got slapped on the hand when she reached for a hot stove.
> 
> "And she hesitates now before going to the stove," Rawlings-Fein said.
> 
> ...


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## Mari (Aug 7, 2008)

I think that most parents are doing the very best they can for their children which to me is a totally separate issue from the ones who are abusive or indifferent. Spanking is not necessarily more harmful than other reactions. Just to add to Daniel's post. A friend of mine said that she would never ever spank her children and we spent some time discussing the issue. Then one day she phoned me in tears - her two year old had darted in front of a car and only the good reaction and brakes of the driver saved him. She pulled her son back to her and gave him a few good whacks on the rear. She absolutely could not believe that she had so quickly and easily gone against her principles. I assured her that since he was wearing a diaper it was unlikely he felt any physical pain but hopefully he understood the message not to do it again. I do not think that spanking is abuse and a smack on the rear is better than a dead child. I do not think spanking is a good idea but sometimes parents lose their cool when their child is in danger. Hopefully the overall care and love provided will allow forgiveness for mistakes. Parents need all the help they can get - sometimes even the best ones. :heart: Mari


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## PDeverit (May 4, 2009)

I agree with the above post, but this is assuming one has parents who love them. Many have children as a secondary consequence of poor, irresponsible or selfish choices. 

Most compelling of all reasons not to spank are the following (which can be verified by people who were actually spanked themselves by doing a little internet research):

"Even without sexual motives on the part of the punisher, spanking can interfere with a child?s normal sexual and psychological development. Because the buttocks are so close to the genitals and so multiply linked to sexual nerve centers, slapping them can trigger powerful and involuntary sensations of sexual pleasure. This can happen even in very young children, and even in spite of great, clearly upsetting pain."
Tom Johnson Sexual Dangers of Spanking Children

?Advocates of corporal punishment in schools should examine very carefully the weight of evidence now available and, particularly in light of the pornographic component, consider whether they can justify the continuation of a system with such a capacity for exciting unhealthy interest.?
British Psychological Society, ?Report on Corporal Punishment in Schools? (1980) 

?But what you would not so readily believe upon my affirmation, was that there are persons who are stimulated to venery by strokes of rods, and worked up into a flame of lust by blows... A strange instance what a power the force of education has in grafting inveterate ill habits on our morals...?

Johann Heinrich Meibom, physician, 1629


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## HBas (May 4, 2009)

I read some strange ideas here and realize that everybody feels different because of the circumstances they grew up in ... 

I agree with spanking to a degree - But I have never viewed spanking as more than a hand to the bum ... now I read that some people have been spanked so hard that their sexual well being as adults are being damaged ... what?

The point is that I have never been spanked like that and can count the few hidings 'that I had' on my two hands - I feel it was needed cause a child sometimes knows when he/she oversteps and wants to be reprimanded (not always in the same way cause you get used to it) and if your parents fail to do so you can act out more because you then fail to see where their, Your leaders, values lies. 

I have a counting system with my son. I count to 3 - have been since he was 3 months old. Spanking is the only thing that happens once we reach 3 - and immediately - no 4'th count and no 'I will let this go today' -  he has counts one and two to explain himself and when I reach 3 without explanation or team work from his side - He will get a smack (on his bum with my hand) but you know, I can count the amount I have had to smack my child on one hand - he is turning 4 in July and 2009 I can even count the amount of times I had to count on one hand. I explain to him what I expect and why - he has time to explain himself and at the end of the day we understand each other. 

He understands that I am the parent and always will - I cannot allow myself to be weak and set bad examples for my son like giving him a smack today but not tomorrow - I (and the other leaders in his life like my mom and His dad) have been consistent in love and discipline and have never seen a better behaved 3? year old in my life - even though I divorced his dad when he was one! He is an absolute joy and because he knows where he stands with me - he has confidence when he approaches me - he is not scared! 

No matter how you reprimand your kid - do it with love and be consistent. There should be a balance between reprimanding and praising cause Both is Very important. In all cases I do not believe that the spanking is the damaging part (spanking - not abuse) but the lack of praise and reward on the other side causes the issues. Like the article said - Most Debated! 


HB


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## white page (May 4, 2009)

Hbas ,
Thank you for your post which is a model of good sense. and infinetly respectful of your son. 


> He understands that I am the parent and always will - I cannot allow myself to be weak and set bad examples for my son like giving him a smack today but not tomorrow - I (and the other leaders in his life like my mom and His dad) have been consistent in love and discipline and have never seen a better behaved 3? year old in my life - even though I divorced his dad when he was one! He is an absolute joy and because he knows where he stands with me - he has confidence when he approaches me - he is not scared!



I agree with the absolute need for consistence and clarity. the very occaisional symbolic light hand on the bum after due warning cannot harm a child.
And as you say it is the intention and the abusive nature of vicious spanking which is damaging.


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## Jackie (May 4, 2009)

David Baxter said:


> That is, after all, the true role of a parent - to guide and teach and nurture, not to punish and dominate.



I am totally against spanking and any other forms of punishment( including hitting or slapping) when bringing up children, much better to sit with them and explain or show by example, tell them what they have done wrong and show them the right way to do it.


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## Budoaiki (May 4, 2009)

As a child I was "punished" very often at the slightest provocation because of my mother's illness.

As far back as I can remember I was always extremely apprehensive about coming to my mother when I had done something wrong either for advice or out of guilt.

Once I became strong enough, I was no longer susceptible to her violent tenancies and our relationship grew exponentially. I have forgiven her for that a long time ago, once I came to understand her illness and her past as the lines of communication grew stronger.

I view violence as the lowest form of communication and I think that it is a sign that the person is overwhelmed by their own anger and or frustration. No doubt my experiences with violence have helped me to form that opinion and I believe it more and more each day with the violence I witness in the world.

Not too long ago I witnessed my mother intervene with great compassion and respect when she saw a mother beating her child in a public park. She gently approached the woman and talked to her for a few minutes I saw her cry and hug my mother then she picked up her child and left. When I asked her what happened she told me that they talked about taking her frustration out on her child and what that would do to their relationship. I was both proud and confused, my mother never talks about when she used to beat us but she has apologized for it and because of that experience I respect and appreciate her that much more. 

I believe that in parenting and in most circumstances, except for an immediate threat to one's life or safety, that there is always another way and with a bit of patience and empathy (increasingly rare virtues these days) we can find the words to make our point or feelings known.


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## white page (May 4, 2009)

Thank you for your very moving post Budoaiki  
I would like to add that there are no perfect parents , but the majority of parents are good enough parents.
However Systematic violence towards children makes parents bad parents.

 If resorting to violence is not in a good enough parents method of punishment , and out of exasperation one day due to fatigue , illness or deep worry a slap on the bottom escapes from the normally non violent parent , this does not make this parent a bad parent , it is just a part of being human.
I am not advocating any form of violence , but I do understand that very mild violence towards children can happen , if this is discussed afterwards and explained then I don't think it would be a lasting trauma.


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## PDeverit (May 5, 2009)

Please understand that this information has been well researched and documented in great detail by leading authorities on the subject (as well as published in several psychology/medical studies).

Unpleasant as this information is, we do our children a great disservice when we fail to acknowledge its truth.

Had we not turned a blind eye to the unpleasant phenomena of clergy abuse of children 20-30 years ago, many children would have been spared its devastating consequences. Peace.

---------- Post added later and automatically merged ---------- 

I agree completely with White Page's post  	
. There are plenty of really good, loving(imperfect) parents who just react in that way. I was distinguishing between that, and parents who couldn't care less about their kids. Parenting is a real non-paying full-time job!


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## Chain Lightning (May 6, 2009)

Cat Dancer said:


> Being spanked only made me feel upset and angry and resentful. I don't even remember anything of why I got spanked. It's humiliating.



AMEN!  I never "though better" of what I did...all it was...fear and avoidance of the punishment/getting caught.  I was only left resentful/distrustful of the parent...and more sneaky!


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## kfan (Nov 5, 2012)

David Baxter said:


> If we're going to quote, what about "you'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"?


Very true. And you don't even need research for that one. You can easily figure it out with your own eyes. You put vinegar on one plate, and honey or sugar on another. Leave it there for 1/2 hr. And start counting how many are where. Stupid comment I know. But it is common sense.


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