# How do I keep my wife?



## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

Hello,

I've been married for 5 years now, and I've never realized it, but I've been abusive to my wife.  I've been emotionally abusive mostly, but at times (during very heated arguments) I've also been physically abusive.  I honestly did not realize what I was doing was physical abuse.  Not using this as an excuse though, I just didn't realize it.  I've never hit her, but I have used my physical strength to stop her from going to a different room in an effort to talk about things.  This seldom/never worked positively, but I felt we had to discuss the issues we had, while she wouldn't.  This has not happened in a long time.

Now, the emotional abuse has been ongoing for a long time, but as I do some reading I realize that a lot of how she's acted to me has also been emotional abusive.  That said I do not feel emotionally abused.  I can easily put it behind me.  Hopefully if I improve, she will too.

Now, she says that the five years of our marriage has had no good times, and that she wants to seperate for a while because she cannot trust me.  This came out of the blue.  She was fine one day, then we had an argument, and she just said that she will not take any more abuse.  That's good, I don't want her to be abused.  Sadly, it actually took this situation to make me look at myself, and realize how bad I've been to her.

My question is, how do I keep us together?  I'm going through Dr. Weisingers Anger Work-Out Book, as well as The Emotionally Abusive Relationship:  How to Stop Being Abused and How to Stop Abusing by Beverly Engel.  I want to be the husband she wants and deserves, but I also want to be with her only, she is an amazing person.  Do I just give her time to work out feelings on her own?  Do I try to help?  I want to go to couples counseling, but she won't right now.  How do I keep us together, and show her that I am trying to make the changes I have to make?

Thanks in advance,

DS


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## ThatLady (Jan 17, 2005)

This is not something you're going to want to hear, but there's really nothing one person can do, alone, to keep a relationship together. That takes two people, both willing to commit to doing the work to make it happen. If your wife feels, at this point, that she must put some distance between you and herself, there's little that you can do. You can't change the past, and you can't erase past hurts. You can only concentrate on yourself, doing the work to become the person you want to be.

Perhaps, if she sees you making the effort to change, and making progress in doing so, the problems in your marriage can be resolved down the road. For right now, though, if she's determined to separate the best thing to do, I'd think, is to let her go and give her some space and time to heal (and to work on herself). In the meantime, you can put your efforts into what you need to do for yourself and your future.


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

I can understand the being apart thing.  And I blame myself 100% for this.  I really don't want it to come to this though.  Primarily because right now our lives are so intertwined that it makes it so difficult.  Difficult on me mind you, not her, and I know that right now my feelings don't really matter.  It's difficult because we are working different shifts with work, and we share one car.  The usual schedule is I take the bus to work in the morning, she will take the kids to daycare for the afternoon, then come to my work, I will take her to work, keep the car, then pick the kids up after I'm done work.  She is then working for the evening.

I honestly don't even see how a schedule like this can be broken up...that is without adding a second car into the picture.  Anything can be done if it has to be, but I also want to stay together for the kids sakes (note: I've never been abusive to the children, she feels I'm a good father, as do I).  I love them all so much, and I just want to make our life happy again.  I want to salvage what I can before there is a routine of being apart.  I feel that if we are apart I will not get the chance to show her that I really want to be a different person, and show her the improvements I'm making.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 17, 2005)

Sometimes, there has just been too much hurt or damage done in a relationship to get past it and continue.

However, whatever the outcome of your marriage, it may benefit you to participate in a program such as "New Directions" (not sure if this exists outside of Canada under that name) for domestic abuse -- first, because you will learn a lot from it, and, second, because if nothing else that will demonstrate to your wife that you are serious about taking responsibility for being abusive.


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

David Baxter said:
			
		

> However, whatever the outcome of your marriage, it may benefit you to participate in a program such as "New Directions" (not sure if this exists outside of Canada under that name) for domestic abuse -- first, because you will learn a lot from it, and, second, because if nothing else that will demonstrate to your wife that you are serious about taking responsibility for being abusive.



How do I find it in Winnipeg?


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 17, 2005)

Try one of these for information:

Evolve
870 Portage Avenue
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3G 0P1
(204) 784-4070 tel
(204) 772-7998 fax/téléc
Org. - Klinic Community Health Centre

Family Centre of Winnipeg
#401-393 Portage Avenue
Winnipeg, Manitoba
R3B 3H6
(204) 947-1401 tel
(204) 947-2128 fax/téléc
Org. - Klinic Community Health Centre


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

Thanks, I will call them today and see what programs they offer.

If anyone has any other suggestions on how to help with my problems, I would appreciate it.  I will try anything to show her that I am serious about this.  Also, is it unfair for me to ask her to give me a chance regarding this?  I know she has given me chances before, but I've never actually looked at myself, and realized that I need to seek help.  So now that I have realized this, and want to change (I truly don't want to be that kind of person), is it fair for me to ask her for a chance to show her that?  Right now she doesn't seem interested in giving it at all.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 17, 2005)

Nothing wrong with asking for another chance but as you said she's given you those before -- I think you can expect her to be skeptical and that you are going to have to prove yourself with actions, not words.


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

I know, and I fully expect to show her instead of just telling her.  This is now the focus of my life.  I'm thinking about it all day everyday..."How can I show her I mean this?"  It's hard to think that the only girl I've ever truly cared about, has been so hurt by me, to the point that she may not want to be with me.  I'm trying to show her every day right now, and I will start a group soon.  The hardest thing to deal with though is the "tone" of hatred in her voice when she does talk to me.  I'm staying calm (some of the reading I've been doing is already helping with that), but it's hard to understand how she would just one day not-care about our relationship anymore.  Maybe I could mention that she's fought with an eating disorder, and had issues from her past that she's never dealt with.  I don't know if that makes any difference or not.  I know it doesn't change anything I've done, but it may be a factor in her feelings.  She is eating normally now, but the underlying issues were not really dealt with.  Could this be a factor in her anger towards me?


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## Jon (Jan 17, 2005)

delta sierra, 

It looks like you have reached step 1 (Recognition).  That is a good thing. I have never been in your situation, but here is some advice that I hope can help.  Write your feelings down, tell her in a letter how much you love and care about her and how you recognize now what you have done.  Put it on her pillow and then never talk about the letter.  Start working extra hard to do extra things around the house to help without being asked and do not talk about the problems unless she wants to.  And then never lose your temper or raise your voice or put a hand on her during this type of discussion.  If she wants to leave in the middle of it, let her go.

Damage has been done and it hard to get past.  Healing takes time.  Just show her that you love her by doing all the extra little things, thank her daily for all she does for you & the kids, become a better husband & father than you ever have been.


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

The good news is that I've already started doing those things, but I feel the need to talk about things.  Albeit calmly.  I've even done the letter and never talked about it.  I will try to stop talking about the issues until SHE offers to talk about them.  I try to tell her every day how I feel, but should I stop that?  I tell her how sorry I am, how much I care and love her, and that I'm trying as hard as I can to change.  Also, my actions are showing her that I am trying, at least I think they should be showing that.  I'm just taking everything she gives me right now because I know it is an emotional time.  Again though, should I stop sharing my feelings with her?  Will this create more resentment?  e.g. "How can he say he loves me after he's treated me this way?"


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 17, 2005)

Why not ask *her* how she feels about hearing what you're saying?


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## delta sierra (Jan 17, 2005)

David Baxter said:
			
		

> Why not ask *her* how she feels about hearing what you're saying?



She says she has no feelings about it.  She says i've created who she is now (I'm not disputing that), and that she just doesn't feel anything.  She said that she feels better than she has in a long time because she's sticking up for herself now, and not taking any crap.

Again, I just want her to be happy, and for our relationship to be saved.  There is no-one else that I can imagine to be as great as her, and I want to try to show her that now, but when she says that she feels better than ever, is there any hope?


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 17, 2005)

Possibly. If you change and the relationship changes sufficiently. Her behavior should tell you pretty clearly she is not going back to the old status quo but for anything beyond that you may have to wait and see.

I understand that you are worried/frightened right now but you need to focus on understanding where your abusive behavior came from and how to ensure it does not happen in the future. You need to do this whether you and your wife stay together or not. And your best chance of convincing her that you are committed to change is to focus on changing, not on trying to get assurances that she will stay with you. Otherwise, she may well fear that all of this is simply a manoever to get her to stay.


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## ThatLady (Jan 17, 2005)

Sounds to me like she's in protective mode, delta. She's not going to let you get to her again, and she's determined. That stems from the unfortunate fact that you've both been here before. You've promised before, and you've broken your promises. Right now, she's thinking: "What's to say this isn't just another lie?".

The only thing you can do is change your ways. Learn to control your anger and curb your abusive behaviors. Give instead of taking. Give until it hurts, then give some more. Ask if she wants to talk about it. If she does, she will. If she doesn't, don't push her. She's made up her mind that she's not going to be a doormat anymore, and there's nothing more stubborn than an ex-doormat. I know. I am one. ;o)


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## delta sierra (Jan 18, 2005)

Thank you both for your help.  I will take your advice and apply it.  David, the comment about her fearing that it may be a manoever to make her stay helps me to understand a lot.  I see that at this point the only thing that may help is to show her that I am going to try to improve whether she is going to be there or not.  I can understand, and appreciate that.  I will take this counsel and apply it to the best of my abilities.  Worst case scenario is that I improve myself, which really isn't a worst case at all.  I'm trying to remain optimistic and positive, but it's so hard when I feel emotionally drained and abandoned.  I do not desire to be the person I've become to her, and I will make the strongest effort I can into changing.  I hope she will soon recognize that this is not a guise to get her back, but that for the first time, I am ready and willing to put forth the effort into changing things.

Thanks again for your help, it's good to know that all is not lost yet, she's worth every ounce of energy I can possible put into this battle.  She's amazing, and deserves a better husband.


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## Cat Dancer (Jan 18, 2005)

I think it's a HUGE step to admit that you have this problem and to want to do something about it, to want to change. Trust has been broken in a big way though. There's still hope, but I think you HAVE to give her some time and space. Love is action, not what you say and the negative things you've done have outweighed any positive things. 

Isn't there some saying about letting go of someone that we love and if it's meant to be, they'll come back? I'm not sure, but I think for now you need to let her go and heal.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 18, 2005)

janetr said:
			
		

> Isn't there some saying about letting go of someone that we love and if it's meant to be, they'll come back?


Yep. It was one of the California humanist psychologists and in the 70s everyone had a Dylan poster, a Hendrix poster, a Che Guevara poster, and one of these:



> If you love something, set it free. If it comes back, it's yours. If not, it was never yours to begin with.


I think it was somebody like Fritz Perls...


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## Cat Dancer (Jan 18, 2005)

Or from Sting: "Free, free, set them free." 

Although I don't understand the rest of that song except for this part: 

"You can't control an independent heart
Can't tear the one you love apart"




			
				David Baxter said:
			
		

> janetr said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, see I was just a baby in the 70s and don't remember all that. He he. 


Anyway, delta sierra, I think you should also be proud of your wife for standing up for herself. You probably wouldn't let anyone else treat her badly and now she's not going to let anyone, including you, treat her that way. 

You can get the help you need. You've already taken the first step.


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## delta sierra (Jan 18, 2005)

I am proud of her for sticking up for herself.  I told her that just a couple of days ago.  I'm glad she stuck up for herself.  This has made me look at myself, which is a good thing, and I think she will get the help she needs with her issues now, which is also good.  I would not have been very happy if someone else treated her that way, just as I am very angry at myself for treating her that way.


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## delta sierra (Jan 24, 2005)

So here I am.  I'm trying my darndest to be the kindest most considerate person I possibly can be despite the cold, angry, comments back to me, and my wife agrees to at least another week to see how things go (we had someone discuss things with us together), and I find out during this "meeting" that this friend of my wife's, that I don't trust for the life of me has said lies about me being extremely agressive towards her and their house (yes, their house) saying I almost tore their door off, and that I was screaming at her.

This didn't happen, so I'm upset about THAT only during our meeting.  So now, because I've gotten upset at all, my wife says she doesn't trust me at all, and wants nothing to do with that person.  Is this reasonable?

I personally think I have a right to be upset about a person lying about me, to my wife, during the most critical point in our marriage.  Don't I?  I mean, I'm stressed about this whole thing, I'm trying to deal with my issues, and then this person is lying to her and she is believing of course because she's upset, and I can't even show that I'm upset by this?  Again, is this reasonable?  I have not shown ANY other form of anger/resentment/frustration/anything other than positive things to my wife lately.

DS


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 24, 2005)

> This didn't happen, so I'm upset about THAT only during our meeting. So now, because I've gotten upset at all, my wife says she doesn't trust me at all, and wants nothing to do with that person. Is this reasonable?


I'm confused. First, if your wife is upset with you, why did she say she wants nothing to do with the person who gave her this (mis)information? Second, you indicate that you were upset during the "meeting". Exactly how dis you express that?


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## delta sierra (Jan 25, 2005)

Strange, I wrote a reply to this at home, and it's not here...hmmmm.  Anyways...



			
				David Baxter said:
			
		

> I'm confused. First, if your wife is upset with you, why did she say she wants nothing to do with the person who gave her this (mis)information? Second, you indicate that you were upset during the "meeting". Exactly how dis you express that?



Sorry for the confusion.  She does still want to keep this person as a friend.  The "that person" that I was refering to was the angry person in me.

As far as how I expressed my feelings about this during the meeting, I said "So S is telling you lies about me, during a time that she knows is the most stressful point in our marriage?  That really upsets me, and I'm going to approach her about that."  Now it was with an angry tone, but I think anyone could see that I was angry at S, not my wife.  I expect my wife to believe anyone else at this time.  She says that it was the look on my face at the time, not what I said.  So apparently, I'm in trouble this time for having an angry look, and refraining from anything else.  I think that's a little unreasonable.  I'm still doing my best to be the best husband I've ever been though, and still trying to be as nice as possible towards my wife.  However, I'm still upset at this so called "friend".


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 25, 2005)

Getting annoyed or even angry is a normal human emotion but there are many ways to express that. Perhaps it would be helpful for you to ask the therapist to describe how you looked and sounded in that session.

My take: You have a history of anger, rage, intimidation, and abusive behavior. You have made a promise to your wife to face up to this and change this aspect of you. She comes back home and you both go to see a counsellor. And in that first session, she sees "the old you" coming out again.

It really doesn't matter who the anger is aimed at. It's the behavior itself that she is saying she won't tolerate any more and in her eyes you just gave her reason to believe you don't mean or can't live up to your promise to her.

Now, I'm not saying that you are going to change this overnight, of course. But you do need to understand that even if you are successful in curbing or inhibiting your anger toward your wife, it won't mean anything if you continue to display the same behaviors toward or about other people. She will believe, correctly, that you haven't really changed and that it's only a matter of time before she again becomes the target.

You really must find an individual therapist or a group for yourself alone to deal with the anger issue.


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## delta sierra (Jan 25, 2005)

I've never shown anger or agressivness to others really though.  This person is saying I have to her, but it's an outright lie.  This is the only thing that bothers me.  At the same time, I didn't think it was bad to say I was upset about something.  Yes, I guess my face looked very mad, but at the same time, I kept it in...I didn't really do anything about it but say it upset me.  Is this a mistake?

As far as the counselling for me, I agree, unfortunately I am on waiting lists.  I keep getting told "Waiting list, waiting list, waiting list."  I'm sure I could find a counsellor though, but to find one I trust without knowing where to turn, I might as well go to the yellow pages, open it to "counsellors", close my eyes, and point.  I have no idea how to find a good counsellor that I trust.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 26, 2005)

What I am saying, delta sierra, is that when we are angry we rarely get a chance to see how we look to others. My guess is that your anger looks more like rage and intimidation to others, including your wife. What I am suggesting is that insted of asking what's wrong with me getting angry at this other person, ask her and the counsellor what they saw in you at that moment.

The point is that your wife is reacting to something you expressed. Maybe you don't know what that is yet. But the first step is to stop being defensive (in the literal sense of defending your behavior) and start trying to find out what she is reacting to, how you affect her, what you look like to her when you are like that. This is not optional, by the way. This is an essential step you must take.


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## delta sierra (Jan 26, 2005)

Thanks, I will ask them that.  I do want to take the proper steps to improve, I guess I just didn't see anything wrong with my behaviour in THIS instance.  I'll try to look through her eyes though, if she'll tell me.

Any thoughts on how to find a good counsellor that I can trust?  Do I just open the yellow pages?


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 26, 2005)

The Yellow Pages may be helpful. In most places you can search those on-line, too -- look for psychologists or counsellors + your city. Try a Google search for psychologist city, anger management city, etc.

Often a good way to learn about resources is to ask your family doctor.


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## delta sierra (Feb 24, 2005)

David Baxter said:
			
		

> Try one of these for information:
> 
> Evolve
> 870 Portage Avenue
> ...



Would you recommend seeing one of the counsellors here AS WELL AS seeing a psychologist?  I've gotten in with a psychologist, gotten into an anger management group through the Family Centre, but they are also offering counselling through the Family Centre.  I don't mind seeing a psychologist, and going to the group, but would it just be repetitious to see the counsellor at the Family Centre also?  I mean, when is it too much that it's pointless?  Can it be too much?  I just don't know if I could keep up a routine of going to everything, then if I have to drop one, would that be even worse than starting?


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## David Baxter PhD (Feb 24, 2005)

I would advise you to discuss this with your psychologist, Delta. I do see clients who are involved in other groups or sometimes with other therapists but it's very important to make the boundaries very clear -- what issues will be addressed where -- to avoid the problem of seemingly conflicting advice or directions. It can work but it needs careful coordination and it may also require consultation between the various therapists. I'm not sure that there are any general rules...


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