# Psychology and religion



## David Baxter PhD (Dec 29, 2008)

"We Reject Psychology"
by Lawrence Russell Taylor, PhD. 
December 28, 2008 

_I recently asked Larry Taylor to write an article addressing the idea that Christian Psychology is some sort of farce with no validation.  I made the request because I have witnessed the fruit of that mindset.  What follows is Larry?s response.  It?s to the point and doesn?t mince words.  I wish I [had] asked sooner.  Thanks to Larry for taking the time to write this article.  God bless each of you.  Allan_

*?We reject psychology?*
Several years ago, I was asked to write the preliminary draft of a revised denominational statement of faith. In an initial review, a leader in the denomination asked me to add the sentence: ?We reject psychology?.

At the time, I thought that was probably the dumbest request I had ever heard, akin to insisting that the world is flat and held on the back of a muscular demigod.

Then a friend called me who had been deeply hurt by pastors in his denomination asserting that, ?Mental illness doesn?t exist? and ?Repentance of sin is all that is needed?, and again, ?The Bible contains all truth.?   It was at that point that I realized that the anti-psychology ideology is not only profoundly stupid, but also acutely painful.

By definition, psychology is the study of human behavior. Every advertising campaign and sales pitch is backed by marketing psychology. Industrial psychology is behind every human resource department in every business. Sports psychologists motivate athletes. Psychology is responsible for what we know about childhood development. It is behind every educational technique in every classroom. To say, ?I don?t believe in psychology? or ?We reject psychology? is like saying, ?We reject architecture?, or ?I don?t believe in kittens?.

Abnormal psychology is the study of people who are consistently unable to function in healthful ways because of mental disorders, which may be caused by some combination of socialization, reasoning patterns, genetic makeup, learning, and physical condition. The most serious mental disorders have been proven beyond argument to be caused by physiological malfunction. Major depression, bipolar disorder, and all the schizophrenic disorders are the result of malfunctions in the chemistry of the brain.

Electronic impulses travel across brain cells called neurons in our brains, then are transformed into chemical impulses as they leap the gaps from cell to cell. A complex mix of chemicals enables those impulses, which control thoughts and feelings, to continue. Just as a diabetic?s blood sugar is out of balance, requiring insulin, the depressed or schizophrenic person?s brain chemistry is out of balance, requiring medical pharmacological intervention.

Biochemistry,  psychobiology, neurological psychology, pharmacology, and the medical discipline of psychiatry are blending to give us increasing insights into mental illness.

It is not only inaccurate, it is cruel for a Christian Scientist to tell a person suffering from cancer that her melanoma is a figment of her imagination and can be overcome with positive thinking.

It is no less wrong and cruel for an undereducated fundamentalist to write a book that leads depressed people to conclude that their problem is sin rather than a chemical imbalance. That is not to imply that all of us do not have sin from which we need to repent, but the primary problem is medical in case of most mental illness.

It is even more cruel for a pastor to violate the essence of pastoral care by teaching inaccurate science that condemns hurting people.

Fundamentalism, whether Christian, Islamic, or Buddhist, is based on ignorance and fear. It is a world view that sees itself under siege from infidels and seeks to create an understandable and controllable world. It leads to legalism, wooden literalism, and intolerance of those perceived to be outsiders. It resorts to distortion, lies, propaganda, hatred, and slander to destroy its enemies. It is diametrically opposite the teachings of Jesus, and is best avoided.


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## amastie (Dec 30, 2008)

Very similar (same??) message as another thread  but this one I embrace *entirely*  

I'm not Christian and I know, at the same time, that that irrelevant to this message.


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## Sparrow (Dec 30, 2008)

I very much agree with the latter half of the article. Growing up amidst a time of fundamentalism, Jesus freaks, and cults (today too?!), I'm reminded that just maybe... A God helps those who help themselves?
:budgie:


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## white page (Dec 30, 2008)

> It’s to the point and doesn’t mince words.


This is about the most crystalline article I've read on this subject .

 The fundamentalists of all religeous movements , can't bear to lose power and control in a domain they themselves  manipulate  with great success.
The psychological games they play with their congregations in order to keep them guilt ridden and in the hope of eventual redemption are deplorable . 

I whole heartedly agree with Larry Taylor . 
Thanks for this article Dr Baxter .


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## stargazer (Dec 30, 2008)

Great article, clearly stated and to-the-point.


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## Sparrow (Dec 30, 2008)

I agree with your words and courage WP.
It's probably some warped overly cautious respect I have inside the article,
But if we shred words these days like they used to burn books...
It's enough to be very well aware and sharp isn't it?
It's a slice of humble pie that should be eaten much more thoroughly.

:budgie:


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## prayerbear (Dec 31, 2008)

Just because you don't believe God exixts, doesn't validate making a conclusion without evidence.Can you PROVE His nonexistence. I am all for psychology and medication and have really gotten better mentally and emotionally!So yes, David Baxter I do respect you for being a psychiatrist!I really like my psychiatrist and will be sad to see him leave!

If you can't explain God then try to explain Satan Worshippers and pagans.I have experienced a Higher power that always overshelms the force of witchcraft on this earth. My father was a warlock and almost raped me. I trusted the Higher Power because I experienced His power personally! My father could never rape or kill me and went to prison! Alot of people in my background are into the occult big time so I know that the God of Heaven is more powerful!

What is psychology and what is one's personal beliefs do not mix!

  The spirit world is very real and I am more atuned to it than this world!


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## David Baxter PhD (Dec 31, 2008)

> What is psychology and what is one's personal beliefs do not mix!



They mix when someone's religious beliefs prevent getting proper treatment, whether that's for a physical illness or a mental health issue.

The courts have recognized that, e.g., the belief that blood transfusions are against the will of God for Jehovah's Witnesses.

The church/clergy should not be interfering with medical advice - they don't have the training or knowledge to give them that authority.


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## Jazzey (Dec 31, 2008)

Hi prayerbear,

Are you reacting to the article written by Lawrence Russell?  I hadn't read the article as an 'all or nothing statement'.  I had viewed it more as an invitation to keep a good balance between spirituality and psychology.


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## stargazer (Dec 31, 2008)

prayerbear said:


> Just because *you* don't believe God exixts, doesn't validate making a conclusion without evidence.



Who is "you" in this sentence, prayerbear?  I don't see anywhere in the article or the subsequent posts where the existence of God is challenged.  It seems to me that the thrust of the article is to suggest that psychology and religion are not incompatible; and more specifically, that a Christian need not reject psychology.


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## NicNak (Dec 31, 2008)

David Baxter said:


> Then a friend called me who had been deeply hurt by pastors in his denomination asserting that, ?Mental illness doesn?t exist? and ?Repentance of sin is all that is needed?, and again, ?The Bible contains all truth.?   It was at that point that I realized that the anti-psychology ideology is not only profoundly stupid, but also acutely painful.



This was the belief of a old dear friend of mine who, from what I could see was suffering badly from an undiagnosed mental illness.



> It is no less wrong and cruel for an undereducated fundamentalist to write a book that leads depressed people to conclude that their problem is sin rather than a chemical imbalance. That is not to imply that all of us do not have sin from which we need to repent, but the primary problem is medical in case of most mental illness.



My friend constantly told me "My faith is not strong enough and it is the devil provoking me, I needto pray and follow God more"

He was falling asleep at his work, he would hide in a cardboard box at work and sleep.  He tried to make a pact with me.  He told me about the voices that haunted him constantly.  

I did the best I could to get him to go see his doctor and to explain how he was feeling, but he believed his situation was completely different than mine.  Stating I was angelic and pure in spirit, while he needed to work harder for what came natural to me.

He broke the friendship about 6 months into it.  Telling me he believed I was a gift to him from God, but seeing that the demons were still talking to him, he was not worthy of the gift and if he ruined this angelic gift from God, he would surely be punished more.

I called him a year later to see how he was.  He said he was good, but was still fighting the demons he said.  Still convinced it was due to his faith.


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## David Baxter PhD (Dec 31, 2008)

stargazer said:


> It seems to me that the thrust of the article is to suggest that psychology and religion are not incompatible; and more specifically, that a Christian need not reject psychology.



That's exactly the point, I think. Thank you.


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## stargazer (Jan 1, 2009)

David Baxter said:


> Thank you.



You're welcome.


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## amastie (Jan 1, 2009)

prayerbear said:


> ..What is psychology and what is one's personal beliefs do not mix!
> 
> The spirit world is very real and I am more atuned to it than this world!


Prayerbear, do you mean to ask "What *if* psychology and one's personal - esp spiritual - beliefs do not mix?

...

I don't know if some point in this conversation, I might run very close to going offtopic.  I ask to be helped to know if I am.

I'm fervently Spiritualist,  prayerbear, but (as I understand it) I feel differently from you - and that's ok.  People are allowed to think differently. 

I expect that the more people, of *any* faith-based belief, hold to their belief in a fundamentalist way - which, to me, means shunning the advantage of looking outside their belief - they will find conflict between their belief and the world of science.

By the way, David, I thought (strictly from watching tv show!? ) that the courts in general uphold Jehovas Witnesses's right not to receive blood transfusions?

I'm not fundamentalist in my belief, but I do sometimes have conflict in terms of what I think will "fix" my problems.  I would have thought that was common even among people without a strongly held faith-based belief.  I address that conflict by pursuing as many options as I can that seem feasible, and give each one time to see if it helps.  Often, a combination of practices helps - pharmacological, psychological, psychiatric, physical (eg exercise), spiritual and other alternative "healing" practices.  I've been lucky in my *choices* of help, am only undermined by a resistance to that healing which, consciously, I aspire to achieve. <lol> .  I have found very good psychiatrists and moved on only when the issues that I needed to resolve seemed to require a different approach.  Even my diagnosis was changed years ago.  I'm also extremely fortunate that my present psychiatrist, whom I have been seeing for about 8 years, is open to me trying a variety of spiritual and alternative "healing".   My psych knows *everything* that I do and what I find helpful.  She has always had confidence in the reasonableness of what I try, and she has seen the effect.  She would discuss with me if she was ever worried about that.

I hope, prayerbear, that you are able to access the benefits of the many scientific as well as alternative healing practices to find peace in your life.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jan 1, 2009)

> By the way, David, I thought (strictly from watching tv show!? ) that the courts in general uphold Jehovas Witnesses's right not to receive blood transfusions?



Not when it comes to the health of their children.


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## amastie (Jan 1, 2009)

Oh.  Thanks.


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## prayerbear (Jan 2, 2009)

Agreed.


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## kimmy (Jan 11, 2009)

Does god exists ? Look around you : The earth...Air...trees...water...Us.


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## rdonovan1 (Jan 11, 2009)

I personally do not see how the two can agree because if a person says they here voices and believes in God and other related things like Angels then wouldn't that be a sign of Schizophrenia?

It would seem to me that it would be be because there is no way to prove the existence of God, Satan, Demons, Angels and other types of supernatural things to a psychologist or psychiatrist because even if they were real then no psychologist or psychiatrist is going to believe you at all without proof.


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## amastie (Jan 11, 2009)

rdonovan,

psychologists and psychiatrists will have their own God based (or not-God based) beliefs too.  It doesn't matter so much what you believe but perhaps the degree to which your functioning is hampered by your beliefs.


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## prayerbear (Jan 13, 2009)

Absolutely. A friend can understand what you believe especially if they come from the same background. I really believe that my mental illness is a chemical imbalance and tell my doctor the same!


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