# Once an insomniac always an insomniac?



## Banned (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm just wondering if it's possible that you can be an insomniac forever.  I know that's a big question, so let me break it down...

I've been on prescription sleeping pills for a couple years now.  I have to take them every night or I will not sleep.  I've tried to wean off them a couple times without success.  I've tried everything the experts say - no caffeine, no exercise, use my bed only for sleeping, deep breathing, comfortable room temperature, dark, quiet, regular schedule, etc.  My body, it seems, refuses to sleep on its own.  I can be absolutely exhausted, but the second my head hits the pillow I'm wide awake.

I also have to be careful with my sleeping pills - they take about 45-60 minutes to make me drowsy, but if I don't go to bed in that window, I can "push past" the tired effect and stay up all night anyway.  I found that out the hard way so now I take them at 11pm and go to bed at midnight (after Golden Girls heehee) so I have a schedule and can plan.

Anyway - does anyone know if it's common to have insomnia for one's whole life?  Or if it's not uncommon, is it unusual?  I would like my body to learn to sleep on its own again, but if it's not harmful and not uncommon, I will resign myself to a life of sleeping pills.  And I guess it's not technically my "whole" life, cause it only hit around age 31 .


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## Daniel (Jul 7, 2011)

It would be unusual. 

If I didn't know any better, I would wonder if you have become dependent on these sleeping pills.    But from what I remember, you often have a hypomanic ability to function without much sleep.

Maybe you just need less sleep than most people?  Do feel tired during the day?   Does exercising more in the morning help?  What about staying away from laptops, TVs, and other sources of light at night?

BTW, as you may know, insomnia is not managed well by trying to go to sleep earlier.  An initial treatment goal is just to wake up earlier. But I'm sure you tried that, too.

---------- Post added at 01:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:05 AM ----------

Also, does the insomnia seem less evident when you are on greater doses of bipolar medications such as antipsychotics?  e.g. the sedating side effects of Seroquel would probably put me to sleep.


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## Banned (Jul 7, 2011)

Hey Daniel,

Thanks for the note.

A lot has changed in the past year.  The bipolar diagnosis was thrown out.  We are going with only Borderline at this time, and definitely not a severe case.  I'm only on 10mg of Cipralex to manage depression and 7.5mg of Imovane for sleep.

I've always seemed to function ok on less sleep but when I have depressive episodes I think not sleeping intensifies them.  I would tend to agree that I've likely become so used to taking sleeping pills that I am probably dependent at this point.  While I would like to sleep without them, the thought of going off them does terrify me, as my sleep now is so much better than it ever was.

I didn't know about not going to sleep earlier.  I have tried to wake up earlier - last semester I had an 8:30am class (which, I admit, I failed miserably at actually getting to, but I did try).  Now with work I can have shifts that start at 4:30 or 5am or an 11am start or a 6pm start...so in the sense of having a regular schedule I'm going backwards because I don't have one anymore.  

I think, also, that psychologically I've programmed myself to go to bed at midnight(ish) but my day starts whenever I have something to do.  So, for example, tomorrow I work at noon so I'll get up at 10:30 because that gives me enough time to get ready and get to work.  Saturday I work at 6pm so I'll likely only get up around 4pm because I have nothing else to do that would "force" me to get up earlier.  

Hmmm...now that I'm writing this out, it's apparent I no longer have a regular schedule and this shift work might wreak havoc on me, but I also know that for the better part of a year I did have a regular wake-up time due to school and work and I didn't see any improvement there either.

So...maybe I'm ok on three or four hours of sleep.  I do feel tired during the day sometimes, and I've experimented with actually cutting my Imovane in half.  I think I was tired though because I was just sitting around bored.  Now that I'm back at the airport my job is very active and physical, so I don't get tired until I get home and the sun goes down, which is likely normal.  I also have a lot on the go right now - running my business, working 30-40 hours/week at my other job, school four nights a week, teaching weekends, homework and study time, trying to complete my MSD certification by September, and judging dog shows.  Right now I don't think I have time to be tired.  I think I'm afraid if I stop I won't start again haha.

---------- Post added at 11:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 PM ----------

I also recalling reading a study that said that night owls tend to have higher IQs than 9-5ers.  That correlation works for me so maybe I should just run with it .


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## Daniel (Jul 7, 2011)

What helped me the most -- many, many years ago -- was having to wake up at the same time every single morning, including weekends.  (This was when I was in college and had a summer job delivering newspapers before dawn.)  A lot of people get their sleep cycles messed up because of the weekends.


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## Banned (Jul 7, 2011)

Hmmm.  So, in order for me to be consistent, I'd have to get up at 3am mg: because if I'm scheduled for 4:30 that's when I'd get up.  I don't know if I could get up at 3am every day.  What the heck would I do at that hour?  Well, I know when I got up consistently at 9am seven days a week I still struggled with sleep.  I'm wondering if I try weaning off the Imovane (ie reduce by 1/4 tablet every week or two) if that might work.  I suppose when I think about it that it's not really a big deal, but I think I just want to know that I can sleep without drugs.  And I don't think Imovane is recommended for years and years on end.


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## Daniel (Jul 7, 2011)

And though you have said you have stopped caffeine to see if that works, I suspect you are currently consuming some amount of caffeine.    Or am I wrong as usual? 

In other words, a lot of people who are on sleeping pills or benzos will take an "upper" (caffeine)  in the morning and afternoon.  Which I think is ridiculous since that amounts to taking uppers and downers.


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## Banned (Jul 7, 2011)

Wrong as usual? Vat da hell are you talking about? :teehee:

I usually have a venti latte at the start of my shift at work - that's my only caffeine for the day. So, it's usually consumed between 7am and noon. Then I drink water for the rest of the day, as I am at this exact moment. I don't drink pop at all (or soda to you!).

---------- Post added at 12:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:18 AM ----------

I remember in high school the whole cycle of "uppers and downers" and I see it now at uni with the younger students. I try and go as natural as possible with my body, where it's safe to do so. So, for example, it's not safe for me to be off my meds, so while they're not "natural" they are beneficial.

I don't like the taste of coffee, and the only reason I get a latte is for the protein in the milk. Sometimes I just get a chai teabag latte, which, granted, still has caffeine in it. They always ask me if I want an extra shot but I don't like the taste. Not a coffee girl. Never have been. Carbonated water all the way for me. I'm also trying to lose a significant amount of weight right now so I'm being really careful about what I eat.


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## Daniel (Jul 7, 2011)

Do you have something to look forward to in the morning besides Starbucks coffee?  

Anyway, it seems your insomnia would improve with CBT, med changes, lifestyle changes, etc.


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## Banned (Jul 7, 2011)

Well, I have great intentions, but they rarely come to fruition .  Having said that, anything I need to book (dr app't, hair app't, nails, massage, etc) I always book early in the morning because it forces me to get up.  It's one strategy I use.  I was thinking too and I think I'm focused on this the wrong way - I've always been focused on making sure I get 8-10 (and sometimes 12) hours of sleep, so if I don't need to get up til 1pm I might not go to bed til 3am because then I'll be ready to get up at 1pm.  I think I need to go back/continue with what I've been doing lately which is have a set bed time, but maybe find some more things to put in my mornings to help me get up.  Maybe I can pick up extra hours at work or something.  I think I need to redesign my day, based on what you've said, Daniel, and the insight its given me.

---------- Post added at 01:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:01 AM ----------

I could clean my house.  I'm sure my mom would appreciate that .  It would mean that next time I go away she wouldn't have to clean my room for me .

Tomorrow (when I'm awake), I'm going to make a list of things I can do in the morning to encourage me to get out of bed.


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## Banned (Jul 8, 2011)

So...I booked an appointment at a sleep clinic.

When I was driving to work this morning I remembered that back in the spring I went to see my doctor because I'm always exhausted no matter how much sleep I get (which, I realize, is not insomnia).  She did a full blood panel and everything is good, so recommended I go to a sleep clinic.  I told her I'd like to hold off until summer as I wasn't sure if it was just the lack of sunlight and lack of activity combined with a bit of stress.  I'm still exhausted all the time no matter how much I sleep so I made an appointment for the sleep clinic.  If I have sleep apnea (which people think I do based on my awesome snoring levels ) then perhaps if we can fix that then that in turn will help fix the insomnia.

That's my theory, anyway.


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## Banned (Jul 10, 2011)

Well smack me upside the head and call me a believer!!

Probably two or three years ago I was walking through Walmart and they were handing out samples of Breathe Right Nasal Strips.  I took a few because, well, I'm a pack-rat and I thought at some point in the next twenty years I might need one.  Anyway, I tried one last night and WOW.  I got seven hours of sleep, woke up feeling alert, awake, and refreshed.  This hasn't happened honestly in years.  The night prior I slept 15 hours, got up for two, was so incredibly exhausted I had to go back to bed.

Anyway I'm off to buy in bulk today .  Still going to keep my app't at the sleep clinic but I will be ecstatic if these continue to work for me.  This constant exhaustion and need to sleep has, in hindsight, really been affecting my life, especially school because I couldn't sign up for morning classes and if I did I didn't do well in them.  Staying awake during my night class after working just five hours was killing me.  

I think having this pinpointed and figured out will be huge in helping me sleep like a normal person again, sans pills.  

Thanks Daniel - all your comments got me thinking and analyzing the situation more.


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## Banned (Jul 13, 2011)

THREE whole days of being totally awake and alert!  I am beyond ecstatic at this.  I had no idea what avenues were left.  Who knew a little bandaid on the nose could make such a difference?  I love getting up now and starting my day.  I have energy and am not trying to nap every couple hours.  Awesome.  I'm going to start weaning off my sleeping pills next week and see how that goes.


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## Daniel (Jul 13, 2011)

Interesting.  I didn't know it could work that well.  I had heard about that for snoring but never had that problem myself. 

For those wanting a free sample of two "Breathe Right Advanced" strips:

Breathe Right   (Canada)

https://www.breatheright.com/freesample.promo  (US)

They say you can wear it all day, too 



> The strips can be used whenever easier breathing is desired - while congested from allergies or colds, during exercise and sleep, or throughout the day.
> 
> FAQs - Breathe Right Nasal Strips



(There is apparently no evidence it will help improve exercise performance, at least in people without breathing problems.)

I plan to use the free samples when I have a cold.


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## Banned (Jul 13, 2011)

I went on a scuba diving trip to the coast in February and I shared a hotel room with some other people.  I assured them I don't snore (I really thought I didn't) but apparently on the second night they were ready to abandon me for their own room.

I have no idea what spurred me to think to try this...I think because of the wait to get in to the sleep clinic and absolute desperation.  

I'm pretty sure I won't be wearing it all day, unless I have a horrible cold and am home in bed and out of sight of everyone .  

I'm still in awe, honestly, that it works so well.  There is a new "advanced" kind coming out this month that I'm looking forward to trying too .  Pretty soon I will be their spokesperson.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jul 14, 2011)

Hey there, awesome that you got booked at a sleep clinic!

My two cents:  I do shift work, too...  I managed at one point to snag "Day Pool" which means I can only work shifts anytime between 7am and 6pm...  So at the time I couldn't be scheduled for evenings or graveyard shifts...  But then I got temporary full time, and I figured, what the heck, I'll try out evening shifts... Wow, what a difference!  I actually found I enjoyed those...  Only thing I didn't like as much was waking up so late in the morning, because it felt like I was wasting the day.  But I was sleeping in until about 9 or 10 am fairly consistently... Because for full time they keep you the same hours for the whole week.

Either way, I tend to agree with Daniel.  I find _consistency_ with my hours of getting up and going to bed helps immensely.  I am glad the scheduling isn't all over the map, or I would probably have problems sleeping...  Also I find that going for long walks or doing something similar during the day (like gardening or housework) does seem to help me feel more tired...

I am more naturally a night owl, I think...   It's just harder to be a night owl in the summer with all this light!  lol


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## Banned (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm totally a night owl too.  I didn't have a choice in this schedule because of when I got hired but on the next schedule I bid on evening shifts.  I had a 7am shift tomorrow morning that I just conveniently gave away .  The impacts of shift work are pretty heavy, so I'm glad where I work they tried to minimize it for us.  I am hoping to move into a new position that does 12 hour shifts and that will be really hard.  But, I work for an airline and shift work is the nature of the beast.  I am also "transitioning" right now to a schedule that will hopefully work for me, trying to sell my business and do 18 million other things, so it's probably safe to say I'm a little over-extended at the moment.  But yes - consistency is very important and I try to go to bed between midnight and 1am and get up between 9 and 10am as much as possible.


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## Banned (Jul 17, 2011)

Tonight will be night one with no sleeping pills, so we'll see how it goes.  I went to bed really early last night because I was wiped, and have now been up since 3am.  I had the most productive day I've had in years - seven hour shift starting at 7am, then came home, got the dogs, took them to the groomer, worked at the store for a couple hours, grabbed the dogs, went racing (Brody was running in her first set of races since double knee surgery last year), met a friend, went for dinner, and just got home at 11;30pm.  I have not had a day like this in years - I haven't had the energy.  I feel good and am hopeful I might get a couple hours sleep tonight.  I know it will take a week or so to regulate my sleep which is fine.

---------- Post added July 17th, 2011 at 01:32 PM ---------- Previous post was July 16th, 2011 at 11:58 PM ----------

Well I picked the perfect night.  Jonah was really sick - I almost had to rush him to the vet at 2am.  I opted not to but ended up staying up with him all night.  He is a bit better today so maybe it was an intestinal bug or something.  It was pretty scary though.  I should sleep good tonight - I'm so tired, and off to work til midnight.


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## Banned (Jul 19, 2011)

No sleep last night.  sigh...anyone know how long it takes to retrain the body?  I caved at 3am and took half of a sleeping pill.  I could not turn my thoughts off all night and my mind was just racing a mile a minute.  The more I tried not to think, the more I thunk.  I may have to talk to my doctor about going back on Luvox, but only if I can combine it with my Cipralex.  That works way too well for me to give it up.

---------- Post added July 19th, 2011 at 10:55 AM ---------- Previous post was July 18th, 2011 at 02:21 PM ----------

YAHOO!!  Five hours last night!  I was a bit stressed too cause I knew I was firing one of my staff today and I have a major exam tonight, but I got five hours, no sleeping pills.  There is hope!


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## Always Changing (Jul 19, 2011)

> but I got five hours, no sleeping pills.  There is hope!


  Awesome!!!  so happy for you. 
  I know what lack of sleep can do.  Surviving on 3\4 hours at the min.


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## Banned (Jul 19, 2011)

I think sleep is a balancing act for a lot of people.  Getting too much sleep is apparently as harmful as not sleeping enough.  They say if you need an alarm clock to wake up you are not getting enough sleep.  I haven't used an alarm clock in years just because I haven't had a job where getting there at a specific time was critical.  At my last job before owning my business as long as we put in our 40 hours/week they didn't care (within reason) which hours we worked.  Now that I have a job where I need to be at work it's more important, but I usually don't work til noon or 6pm with the odd exception.  

I was up at 5:30am today and snoozed again from about 8-9 before I went to work to fire my girl.  But then I worked all day and went to school tonight and will probably head to bed around midnight and be up around 7am.  I might be able to take a morning class at the gym after all.  It was previously inconceivable.


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## Always Changing (Jul 20, 2011)

Maybe it is possible that you are doing too much...  even possibly expecting too much. 


> I also have a lot on the go right now - running my business, working  30-40 hours/week at my other job, school four nights a week, teaching  weekends, homework and study time, trying to complete my MSD  certification by September, and judging dog shows.


  Where in there is there room to spare for sleep?  any sleep!   I think If I were to even contemplate half of the above I more than likely would have to have sleeping pills Every night!!!.     There is no time "allotted" (the space doesn't really exist!) to actually relax, do nothing! get tired and then fall sleep on a regular basis.  

Just thinking out loud here.


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## Banned (Jul 21, 2011)

It sounds like a lot but I don't know that it is.  I work about 30 hours/week at my part-time job, and about 15 hours/week at my store (my staff do the rest of the hours).  School is done now (yay!) but I do have to study for Transport Canada exams.  I like to keep really, really busy but I also do believe there has to be some breathing time at some pointand .  I generally give myself a couple hours at the end of the day to wind down, watch tv, go online, play with the dogs and cat, etc.  Today, for example, was an awesome day - I worked 12-5 at my part-time job and then went diving with my friends, went to Dairy Queen for ice cream with my mom and now I'm home watching tv.  Surprisingly I find working at my part-time job relaxing, or a good release, or something - I just find it puts me in a really good place.  And despite my admittedly kind of insane schedule, I do allot myself 8-10 hours/night for sleep.


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## Always Changing (Jul 21, 2011)

> And despite my admittedly kind of insane schedule, I do allot myself 8-10 hours/night for sleep.


I stand happily corrected!


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## Banned (Jul 22, 2011)

No worries!  It's often helpful to have those important questions asked.  I've been really careful to watch how much rest time I have and such but I haven't always been this good about it, or good at saying "no" to things.  I used to over-commit and then back out at the last minute.  Now I say no if I can't or don't want to...I need to have my me-time.  It's really, really important.

Last night I slept about ten hours - I was really tired.  I ran out of my meds and called in my refill but couldn't get them tonight, so hopefully I will sleep ok.  Not my sleeping pills but my Cipralex - I usually take it right before bed because it does make me a bit drowsy, and now I'm going to be all stressed out about missing a day, argh...but I will be fine til tomorrow.


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## Banned (Jul 23, 2011)

I slept nine hours last night but I'm really, really tired today.  I hope this is a little blip on the radar - I had about a week of really good energy, and I stayed at work two hours past close last night to get the grooming rooms completely cleaned and re-organized.  I'm beat today and have to go to work from 4-11pm, so we'll see how the rest of the week pans out.  I find I'm starting to go to bed later and later too.  I think it's a product of shift-work.


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## Daniel (Jul 23, 2011)

> I think it's a product of shift-work.



including not enough North American sunshine


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## Banned (Jul 23, 2011)

I won't argue that for a minute!  I need to move to the Bahamas or something.

My niece is coming to visit me in a couple weeks and I told her to bring her passport cause we're going to California for a few days.  I need heat and sun!


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jul 23, 2011)

Sounds awesome!  We're up in Saskatchewan, so winters are nasty.   I try to soak up as much sun as I can during spring/summer/fall and then pray for strength until the days get more than 6 hours of full sunshine again...   8(


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## Banned (Jul 24, 2011)

I hear ya, jgjb.  I'm right next door and I think everyone here is vitamin d deficient.  I made a vow that every year, come hell or high water, I will take at least a week to go away somewhere warm in the winter.  I need it both mentally and physically.  I haven't had a real holiday either in two years (I like to take 3-5 weeks every year to go somewhere exciting like Europe or South America) so I'm feeling drained.  I went to Vegas twice last year but just for three days at a time, so that doesn't count.  I work for an airline so I have no excuse not to travel. I just need to pick a destination and go!


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## rdw (Jul 25, 2011)

Thanks thanks thanks for the breathe right tip. I am a believer and now a user - what a difference in my energy levels. Next step drop the zoplicone...


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## Banned (Jul 25, 2011)

I'm glad, RDW.  They are making a big difference for me although the past couple days I've been tired again, but not to the point where I need to stop what I'm doing to sleep, like before.  I'm hoping it's just a by-product of the weird hours I've been working and the unstable schedule I've had.  We get our new work schedule tomorrow and I'm kind of afraid to see what I got but...

I had tried an alternate product from the breathe right but it didn't go so well - it opened my nasal passages better but a little too well - I woke up with a wretched sore throat both days and a bleeding nose from it rubbing on my septum .  Back to the breathe right and hoping the new and improved ones hit the shelves here soon!


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## Banned (Jul 28, 2011)

I booked a trip.  Yay!  I'm going to San Francisco for a week.  I love that city so I'm going to take my 19 year old niece with me.  We should have a blast I think.  

I got a great work schedule - pretty much 2-9pm Wed - Sun, so nothing too late.  Hopefully I can start going back to bed at a decent time again.  It's 2am now and I'm wide awake.  When I do go to bed I'll sleep but a little too well - I'm sleeping about 12 hours now without sleeping pills.  <sigh...> I should have known this wouldn't be easy but at least I'm off the pills.  That's step one.  Getting a better schedule in a couple weeks is step 2.  I don't have a step 3...


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## Banned (Aug 5, 2011)

Well, I'm out of theories.  The best I can come up with is that I *do* sleep, just not at the same time as the rest of the free world.  Oh well.  I had forgotten to use my Breathe-Right strips for a couple nights and I found that I actually didn't wake up excessively tired, so maybe it was the combo of Cipralex and sleeping pills that made me dead tired?  I don't know...but no matter what, I'm sleeping, no pills, and I have energy during the day.  However it's happening, I don't know and I don't care.

Change of plans - San Francisco was too expensive, so going to Vegas instead.  Took some extra time off so I can extend my stay a bit, and bringing some study material to read by the pool as I have a major, important exam for work upon my return.  A three hour exam stands between me and a salary increase of about 400%.  I love Vegas - I try to go twice a year, and since it's the city that never sleeps, I suppose it's a good fit in some ways.


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