# I wish spanking were illegal



## Cat Dancer (May 30, 2009)

These are just my personal opinions. I think spanking is abusive. I think it's lazy. I think most of the time it's done out of anger. I think it causes resentment in a lot of children. How do you tell your child not to hit someone when you're hitting them? 

Also, I am SICK of my mother in law telling us that NOT spanking is abuse. This coming from a woman who beat her children until they bled? Hello? Also she says not spanking is going against the Bible. I don't think so. Maybe it's one of the reasons her own children can't stand her to this day. 

I personally think it's bad parenting. I was spanked as a child and I resented it. I also hated being yelled and screamed at. 

Anyway, I just wish it was totally illegal and that way people wouldn't have to decide whether to spank or not. I do think there is a very positive movement in that many people do think it is abuse and they're choosing other methods.


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## Into The Light (May 30, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

i agree with you. there are other ways to teach your children what is okay behaviour and what isn't. if you don't know how to do that then talk to other parents, read up about it, go to a parenting class. it starts from an early age too. don't wait until they are much older, from the moment they understand the word no you can start to teach them boundaries.


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## David Baxter PhD (May 30, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

I thoroughly agree, CD. It is abusive. And it is lazy. And it is self-indulgent, personal irritation or rage rationalized as "instruction". And it is a contradictory message to convey to children.

No wonder there is so much violence in this world. It starts in the crib for many families.


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## Jackie (May 30, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

Cat Dancer,

I fully agree with you. It should be illegal. If you went up to an adult and slapped them the way some mothers hit their children in the shops then you would be arrested, so why are adults allowed to hit young impressionable children and put it under the heading of punishment for bad behaviour, like its ok, and its far from ok, its very very wrong.


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## NicNak (May 30, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

I agree with you Cat Dancer.

My father was very hard on my brother.  Starting at age two!  My brother got ahold once of the baby powder and squeezed and shook the bottle, covering himself in baby powder.  (I think most parents would have laughed)  My dad hit him for it.

My dad only put me over his knee once and I peed on him in fear. He never did it again.  I don't even recall this happened, mom told me.

After the hitting stopped, it was more fear tactics and dirty looks we got.  We were still afraid of him.

I have often wondered if it was due to my dads very rough upbringing.  His father was extremely violent toward my dad, aunt and grandma.

My parents did eventually separate, mom waitied until she knew she could support us and left dad.  Things got better.  My brother and I started to open up more and the three of us started spending more time together.


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## Disturbedforlife (Jul 6, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

Agreed to the fullest extent - it forms from a laziness to use language and other forms of healthy communication to teach your child the correct behaviour.. Also, talking to your child takes time, and spanking is faster. I think it is wrong. Very wrong. Good posts in this thread.


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## HBas (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

And I do not agree. I think you should use all the tools available to you as parent and ensure that you use them wisely to obtain the best results for your situation. Every situation is unique - I have had to give my boy a spanking or two and it was by no means because I am lazy as parent - I have explored many options (from Super Nanny through to caregivers guide) and some advice and strategies work for some situations and others doesn't. There is a huge difference between spanking and abuse - if people were wise enough to keep a spanking "a spanking" and not hit the child silly there would never have been any issues. 

Any means of punishment can be very harmful if you do not apply it in the correct manner! 

If a parent is abusive then the kid will get it, either physically or mentally and personally, I cannot decide which is worse! Childeren needs discipline and I would advise any parent to sit down and set goals they want to achieve before the even think of setting a system for discipline in place - set yourself guidelines and stick to it. 

I respect your view - maybe I would have shared it have my upbringing been different. I have had a view spankings and I remember it in the way my mom did it and I always understood why I got it and what she wanted to achieve - she communicated it clearly.

Best of luck with everyone's choices.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*



HBas said:


> There is a huge difference between spanking and abuse - if people were wise enough to keep a spanking "a spanking" and not hit the child silly there would never have been any issues.



It would still have been an issue. No matter how "lovingly" or "responsibly" you may feel you are being when you hit a child (let's drop the gentle euphemisms like "spanking" and call it what it is), you are letting the child know that in your opinion it is okay to use physical force and acts of physical aggression to compel compliance with your wishes.

There is no way around this. No amount of rationalism or gentle synonyms for assault are going to change that fact.


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## HBas (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

When you put it like that, it seems terrible to say the least.


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## Cat Dancer (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

Also, if you hit, and it IS hitting, an adult the way you hit a small, helpless, defenseless child, then you could possibly be arrested for assault. Why should it be different for a child?

And how in the world do you tell a child not to hit someone else when you hit them? 

I hate it. I was spanked as a child and I learned nothing from it except humiliation and fear. 

I hope so much it will be made illegal in the States one day like it is in many countries then there will be no questions about it or excuses for the lazy parenting that it is.


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## HBas (Jul 7, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

I don't share your emotion on it so I don't think I will understand easily.

I respect it though. You have to raise your kids according to your believes and your inlaws has no place in there.

We all have different views and I thought about the un-sugar-coated message Dr. Baxter wrote but still don't feel any more guilty about mine. It makes for good thinking though. May be what exchanging views are all about?

See you guys around.


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## white page (Jul 11, 2009)

*Re: I wish spanking was illegal*

I think also that hitting a child for "educational"  purposes is not only abusive but dangerous, how can it be possible to justify that pain, fear and violence are for a childs good.

The message put over to a child of any age is perverse and produces generations of child spankers. I have in the past slapped a child on the bottom, from irritation, I still feel awful about it, I did say I was sorry and wrong to do it. 

As an imperfect human, I do understand that it is possible to slap a child out of irritation and laziness,though there is no excuse for it, and should be avoided at all costs, however an isolated slap out of irritation is not in the same leaque as spanking which is used as a tool and involves repeated blows.

This is cold blooded premeditated assault. 

Nothing can justify it.


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 12, 2009)

How would you handle it then if a child of yours was so arrogant and abusive towards you that basically anything you said just went in one ear and out the other ear? I am just kind of curious about that because I tend to be very interested in things like behavior modification and other related things.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 12, 2009)

Why would you expect that physically assaulting that child would improve his or her attitude?


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## Daniel (Jul 13, 2009)

> I am just kind of curious about that because I tend to be very interested in things like behavior modification and other related things.



BTW:

http://forum.psychlinks.ca/parenting/18143-how-to-teach-your-child-to-have-more-tantrums.html


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## Banned (Jul 13, 2009)

I remember sooooo many spankings as a child.  And I remember other physically abusive methods of punishment.  While I'm not sure it damaged me personally, I think it's an unacceptable way to teach a child right from wrong.

I'm a R+ dog trainer, and I tell people the same things that have been mentioned here about using violence to teach that violence is not acceptable.  Additionally, I tell my students that if they use a physical correction on their dog, it better correct the behaviour within two corrections.  After that, you're either annoying or abusing the dog.  The same thing goes for kids - except I believe it goes straight to abuse from the first time.

Based on the number of spankings I got, I'd say it was abuse, since my behaviour only changed when I got older and learned about "life consquences"...ie if I break my toy then I don't have a toy to play with, etc.

There are so many positive ways to teach children (and dogs!), but they take work, and we are a lazy society in so many ways.


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 13, 2009)

I personally think that everything should be in proper balance. 

Talking to a child and educating them is good and more often than not will usually suffice, but sometimes it does not always work. 

When you do spank a child then it needs to be only for the most severe things that talking will not solve.

If you tell the child what you expect out of him or her and if you give them good reasoning for why certain things are right and wrong then usually that will do if it is done properly.

Sometimes however you will have children that will not respond to talk for one reason or the other and that is why you need to be willing to spank if necessary. 

Balance and proper timing as well as understanding and compassion and proper boundaries can and will make the difference.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 13, 2009)

How do you find "the proper balance" between assaulting and not assaulting a child?


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## white page (Jul 13, 2009)

> Sometimes however you will have children that will not respond to talk for one reason or the other and that is why you need to be willing to spank if necessary.


Would you spank a deaf, autistic or a child in pain? 
These children would not be able to respond to talk for one reason or another. 



> How would you handle it then if a child of yours was so arrogant and abusive towards you



As everyone knows this kind of behaviour is learned, learned from bad parenting in the first place.  You know "role models".  Do you have any children rdonovan1?


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## HBas (Jul 13, 2009)

Assualt - I was spanked as a kid but never once assaulted! 

I have never used violence to solve any situation and also learned that respect is earned and not forced down. Because I was never assaulted, I could understand that there is a difference between assault and spanking. Maybe everybody was not as lucky as I am! 

If you believe that spanking comes from irritation and laziness then you should definately steer clear. 

HB


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 13, 2009)

white page said:


> Would you spank a deaf, autistic or a child in pain?
> These children would not be able to respond to talk for one reason or another.
> 
> 
> ...



I don't have any children, but I have been around enough children to know as to what they are really capable of. If you think one of two children is bad, then you have never been a school bus driver before. 

I have driven school bus in the past and I know that they are capable of all sorts of things. I have also driven special ed kids as well and there is definitely a difference in the way they act.

Children like you describe act the way that they do because they have a real and legitimate problem. The children that I am describing are ones that do or should know the difference between right and wrong, but because of poor parenting and lack of proper discipline they tend to think that they know it all and that they have all of the answers. 

Basically what they are is rebellious towards everyone because they were not taught proper boundaries and that is why we have had incidents like the Columbine, Colorado incident and it is why we have gangs.


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## white page (Jul 13, 2009)

As I said bad parenting produces confused and asocial children. Not a lack of spanking.
Thank you for agreeing with me rdonovan1.


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 13, 2009)

I wish that I did have children, but until I am able to find that one right woman for me it will never happen and that is a simple fact. 

If I had children of my own, I would teach them that it is not allright to bully or pick on anyone for any reason and to that should respect other peoples thoughts, feelings, beliefs and opinions as long that they are not oppressing or harming anyone in any way.

I would also teach them they need to stand up for what is right and that they have a right to be treated with kindness, courtesy and respect. They would also be taught to defend themselves both verbally and physically, but that they should never cause another physical harm unless it was absolutely necessary.

Basically what they woud learn from me is good morals and values and whether they liked it or not I would not tolerate bad behavior from them for any reason.

They would learn self directed behavior and that is something that the martial arts tends to teach. 

My daughters would learn how to be women and my sons would learn how to be men. All would know how to defend themselves and all would know that no one can take away their freedom, their self confidence, or their self esteem and self worth. 

Both would have a healthy understanding and respect for the opposite sex and both would be encouraged to discover who they really were as people. 

There is a saying in Wicca (which I am not a part of at all) that goes 'If it harms none, so shall it be done'.


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## HBas (Jul 13, 2009)

White Page, see attached. 

Do not allow anyone to through the Bible at you, everyone interprets the Bible in their own way, which does not make it right ... or wrong for that matter! The Rod and Rebuke - seems to me like you need a good balance - and giving someone the Rod does not mean spanking them. I cannot clrearly see the Bible telling people to Hit their Children anywhere, it's clear about disciplining them though.

One more thing, if my child was disabled, I may have had a different approach to discipline - every child is different and has different needs! Thanks for touching the toppic and making me think about my actions and reasons a bit - always good to check out yourself and your reasons for doing things. I have to admit that I would not have done a thing different ... with my child that is 
Take care

Proverbs 29:15   (New King James Version) Change 
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Amplified? Bible 
Contemporary English Version 
Darby English Version 
Good News Bible 
King James Version 
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New King James Version 
Young's Literal Translation 

 (15) The rod and rebuke give wisdom, 
But a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. 


Copyright ? 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc. 

 If a child is "left to himself," where is his training coming from? Obviously, in this case, mom and dad are not having a great impact on their child. The training must then be coming from society, most likely from the child's peers. Because "foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child" (Proverbs 22:15), a child left to himself brings shame—he is bound to get into trouble if his training is haphazard or undirected, or if he is not drilled or disciplined. The flipside of this verse says, "But the rod of correction will drive it far from him." The rod symbolizes that someone has taken an interest in the outcome of this child's life. He is giving direction, correction, instruction, to steer this child where he is to go. The training, the teaching, makes all the difference in the world.

David, though a man after God's own heart, did not take an active hand in teaching Adonijah. In this verse God states why Adonijah rebelled. In essence, David actually encouraged his son to rebel by not taking an interest in rearing him. David failed to train him in the way he should go, so that he would not depart from it. Instead, David trained him in a way that was bound to produce rebellion. This flaw of David's shows up in others of his children: Absalom, Amnon, and others. It does not matter whether one is a child of God having His Spirit or not. If a parent does not carry through with the right kind of training, then the results will surface in his children.


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## white page (Jul 13, 2009)

Hbas,
Thank you for your post, please do not take it as a personal criticism of your parenting, when members advocat a total ban of corporal punishment towards children, I know that parenting is an individual and sensitive subject. 

It is evident that a child needs to have good role models in order to become a decent and responsible adult. I see the privelege of bringing up a child,  not as a matter of training, more as a matter of showing a good example and guidance towards responsible and 
ethically moral behaviour.

A child has to know that there are choices, and to learn to weigh up and decide  which are the right choices to make, training entails no choice, and is perhaps apt to produce an individual who will at some point or other counter react to the training in dramatic ways.


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 13, 2009)

When I was growing up I was spanked for things that I did wrong. My Grandparents on my mother's side were very stern and devout Baptists and between them and what I have learned from the martial arts I learned what right and wrong really meant.

I don't believe in assaulting anyone for any reason except in self defense or in matters where force is required like warfare or something along those lines.

I basically believe that it is best to be nice to people and that you should not only be honest with both other people, but with yourself as well. I also believe that a person should not limit themselves at all and that it is best for them to do everything that they can to educate and improve both themselves and the overall qualities of their lives.

I also believe in being true to who you really are. More often than not most of us tend to develop very unhealthy attitudes towards both ourselve's and other's that tend to color our perception of the world. 

Psychology tends to call these negative behaviors as self-defeating behaviors and they are basically like to doing things such as telling yourself that you are going to quite smoking or that you are going to do something else in the coming year, yet unfortunately most people never really follow through on their promises to themselve's and that is why it is called a self-defeating behavior.

NLP tends to use another term and that term is called a limiting belief. Because the mind is a lot like a computer, what you put into your mind and what you tell yourself is what you are going to get out of it. If you tell yourself that you can't do something, then you are right. If you tell yourself that you can do something then you are right again.

In computerease that is called GIGO - Garbage In, Garbage Out.

Because of these unhealthy ideas, attitudes and behaviors that we ourselve's were subjected to by our own parents we tend to project and transfer those unhealthy thoughts, attitudes, behaviors, and ideas onto our kids and as a result they start to take on and display those same behaviors, attitudes, thoughts, and beliefs and that is why I believe that the best way to teach children is to set good and positive examples for them to follow while at the same time encouraging them to be themselve's and to pursue activities that are not only positive in nature, but that will allow them to learn and to grow in a positive sense. 

Having a Clark Kent perception is great for the most part. It is also unhealthy in that it tends to teach people to become complacent and rude because eventually that can and often does turn negative and that is why proper balance is so important.

Children are watching what we say and do and as to how we treat each other and they are learning from it as well and that is why I believe it is best to set positive examples by being good role models for them.


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## HBas (Jul 13, 2009)

Thanks White Page,

Don't worry, I never do - I understand well enough that we are just chatting. It is a very sensitive and personal thing but I would never take it as personal criticism from anybody that is not personally involved in my situation. I take it as opinions and do not hesitate to give mine because that is how we grow and learn how other people perceives things. I do value the opportunity to be part of a forum with real people and real feelings. Thanks for the reply.

HB


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## Banned (Jul 13, 2009)

I am now in my mid-thirties, a grown adult.

When I think back to my early childhood, and all the spankings I used to get, and the reasons for them, one thing is clear - thirty years later, I don't remember the physical pain of the spankings, but I do remember the amount of fear involved. Fear that someone I was supposed to be able to love and trust, was now going to hurt me, in the name of teaching me.

Instead of hitting me to try to convey a message, my parents could have talked to me. I would have much better memories now, as an adult, of that, than I would of being spanked.

I remember when I was about four years old - I got nasty, nasty spankings regularly from my dad. The reason? At the age of four, I said to my mom "You're not my real mom. You can't tell me what to do." (I was adopted, and knew it from the time I could talk.)

To me, that was abuse. Plain and simple.  I was four year's old for God's sake.  That's the best they could do with a four year old???

And my brother learned to abuse me from the awesome example set by my parents. "Surely if it's ok for them to hit her, it's ok, even my right, for me to hit her." He beat the **** out of me regularly, my entire childhood. That was the only example he had of how to deal with conflict.

I get the therapy bills as an adult.

(But don't ask me if I was abused as a child, because I will scream "no" from the hills. I'm so very conflicted today.)


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## HBas (Jul 13, 2009)

Hey Turtle,

Yea, that is totally the oposite of what I had and maybe why I do not understand the trauma side so well - I had a few spankings but never extreme and I can count them on my one hand ... The way you describe it makes me understand why there are so many people that totally despise spanking - I would too!

Oh, White Page - the bible peace was meant for Cat Dancer and I adressed the whole mail in reply to you - Sorry!  

HB


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## Cat Dancer (Jul 13, 2009)

HBas said:


> Oh, White Page - the bible peace was meant for Cat Dancer and I adressed the whole mail in reply to you - Sorry!
> 
> HB



Just curious, but why is it addressed to me?


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## HBas (Jul 14, 2009)

Cat Dancer said:


> Also, I am SICK of my mother in law telling us that NOT spanking is abuse. This coming from a woman who beat her children until they bled? Hello? Also she says not spanking is going against the Bible. I don't think so. Maybe it's one of the reasons her own children can't stand her to this day.




That's why - I could not find the Bible telling me that not spanking is wrong. Still does not change the way I feel but people should never twist the facts according to their own oppinion - it is written like it is.

I was giggling when you said 'curios' and wanted to reply that "Curiosity killed the cat" but would have been less than appropriate? hehe still giggling. 

Have a great day.


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## kfan (Nov 5, 2012)

I agree with you cat. Someone has to stop these people from hitting their kids under the disguise of "discipline."

---------- Post Merged at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 01:20 PM ----------

as for your mother in law cat. It's your child. She has no business sticking her nose. pLEASE keep the poor child away from her.


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