# New-Onset Psychosis Linked to Synthetic Marijuana Use (Spice)



## David Baxter PhD (May 16, 2011)

*New-Onset Psychosis Linked to Synthetic Marijuana Use*
by M. ALEXANDER OTTO, _Clinical Psychiatry News_ 
05/16/11

Synthetic marijuana, known as "spice," appears to have induced psychosis in 10 young service members in the U.S. Naval Academy, according to a case series from the Naval Medical Center in San Diego. 

"These are people who never had psychosis. They were so disorganized, so out of it, we had to lock them up [on our ward]. It?s pretty scary," Dr. Donald Hurst, lead investigator on the study, reported at the annual meeting of the American Psychiatric Association. 

Psychotic symptoms resolved within 8 days in seven patients. One of those patients had a past diagnosis of attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder; the others had no psychiatric histories. Most had been daily users for weeks, months, or up to a year. 

The remaining three patients still suffer lingering paranoid delusions and dysthymia after 5 months. One has a history of substance abuse and a family history of schizophrenia and had been using spice daily for a year and a half; another has a history of depression and had been using spice daily for a month. The third patient, however, has no personal or family psychiatric history and had used spice about 20 times in two months. 

The men were in their early 20s. They were each hospitalized 6-10 days. Some had used alcohol, marijuana, or both, with spice. It?s unknown how much the men used during each session. 

Given the potential consequences, Dr. Hurst advises discussing spice with patients if there?s cause. "Tell them how bad" results of using the substance can be, said Dr. Hurst, a lieutenant commander and third-year psychiatry resident at the medical center. 

The report is the first to link spice to new-onset psychosis in patients with no psychiatric histories. There is no way to know at present how common such reactions are, he said. 

After they were admitted, 7 of the 10 patients in the case series got atypical antipsychotics, usually for 4 days. Since writing the report, Dr. Hurst and his colleagues have seen about 20 additional cases and have noticed that patients ? if they are going to recover ? seem to do so regardless of antipsychotic use. 

Because of that, "we are starting on our ward not to give them anything. You may give them an antipsychotic because behaviorally they are out of control, and we need to tone it down. But if they?re calm, we are not giving them anything, and they are still clearing up in 4-8 days," he said. 

In terms of presentation, "the most common theme is confusion" along with disorganized behavior and speech. Paranoid delusions also are common, but their focus can shift from minute to minute. Symptoms wax and wane as well, with patients cycling in and out of psychosis hour by hour, sometimes even quicker, Dr. Hurst said. 

Auditory and visual hallucinations, flat affect, thought-blocking, alogia, suicidal ideation, insomnia, psychomotor retardation, agitation, and anxiety also were noted in the group. 

"The role of spice in inducing these symptoms was determined by military command, friend, family member and/or patient report, as well as urine drug test," Dr. Hurst noted. 

Synthetic marijuana is usually a mix of cannabinoid receptor agonists. They are generally full agonists, which distinguishes them from the active ingredient in actual marijuana, tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), which is a partial cannabinoid agonist, Dr. Hurst said. 

The chemicals originally were developed to help locate cannabinoid receptors and as experimental pain relievers ? uses that did not pan out, he said. 

Plant material is dipped into the chemicals, or sprayed with them, and sold on the Internet or in drug paraphernalia shops as K2, Blaze, RedXdawn, and other brands. Spice is usually smoked, but is beginning to be sold as a crystalline powder. Users have no way of knowing how potent a particular product is, Dr. Hurst said. 

On March 1, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Agency temporarily designated five synthetic cannabinoids as Schedule I substances, pending further action, "because they pose a threat to public health," according to the order. In January 2011, seven Navy midshipmen were discharged from the Naval Academy because of spice use. In 2008, the U.S. Marine Corps banned the substance because of concern about its increased use among service members.


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## A Patriot (May 17, 2011)

The whole idea of using synthetic marijuana is appaling.

Either use the real thing or nothing at all.

All psychedelics have the very real possibility of causing psychosis - and even when they don't they help magnify the current levels of massive injustice and inequity present in the World - which makes day to day living more difficult.

I do, however, believe the war on drugs and our current approach to prohibition is more harmful than decriminalization - as use rates seem to go down amongst the youth in those countries like portugal which take a more sensible approach.

My use would go way way up if it were legal in this country.

(meaning I might use pot once or twice a month - tops)


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## Dragonfly (May 17, 2011)

Many thanks for this article.  I bet it explains why we (community hospital just north of Seattle, WA) has seen a rash of psychosis in people with no previous mental health issues .... urine tox screen on admission is positive for MJ ... and all they can acknowledge when they clear is that they have been smoking pot that to their knowledge, has not been dipped in anything.   I wish someone was doing cohort studies in this group of people to determine the (odds ratio) chances that they become psychotic again in the future (without exposure to MJ).


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## David Baxter PhD (May 17, 2011)

When I read this artticle, I remembered you asking a couple of months back or so if I'd heard anything about ER patients with atypical psychotic symptoms, Dragonfly.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

Hey I'm 19 years old and I've experimented with synthetic marijuana back at college right before the semester ended. Ive always been prone to panic attacks and I had a very severe one when I smoked the synthetic marijuana. It was so bad the following days I had painic attacks every day and severe anxiety all day I couldn't sleep eat or do anything. Since then I have been prescribed zoloft and respiridone. The past three months have been the worst experience of my entire life. My anxiety has gone away for the most part but I question existence every second of every day Im not interested in the things I used to be interested in. Everything just seems so strange and distant. Like I said this has been going on for almost 3 months now and I was wondering if anyone had any insight on this? I've talked to multiple Doctors and therapists and nothing seems to be getting better.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 31, 2011)

Even regular marijuana can trigger panic attacks in susceptible people. You indicate that you are taking some medications and that you have "talked to various therapists" - can you elaborate on the therapy you've had to learn how to manage your anxiety and panic attacks?


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

I've been doing cognitive behavioral therapy to be more specific. And I understand that actual marijuana can trigger anxiety but when I have experimented with marijuana I've never had that experience that I did with the synthetic marijuana. And I'm not worried about the anxiety as much as I'm worried with the thoughts and depression I've been going through this summer. Ive been obsessing over existence and why "we" are all here on this earth and what purpose we serve. Ive questioned existence before my bad experience but not to the point where it has interfered with my life. And I'm guessing my depression just goes hand in hand with everything I've been going with. Most doctors don't know much about synthetic marijuana because it's so new and they don't exactly know why certain people have the effects they have.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 31, 2011)

How long have you been on your medications? and what doses are you taking?


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

I've been on the zoloft (50 mg) for almost a month and a half and the respiridone (1 mg) was added a little over two weeks ago

Thanks for your quick replies


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 31, 2011)

OK. It's early dasys yet for both so you can expect the benefits to increase over the next few weeks. Also, that's a low dose of Zoloft so your doctor may want to adjust the doses as well at some point.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

Yeah i was told that was the lowest dose. And I can tell I have improved since the first couple of weeks since the bad experience. Do you have any idea of why it has turned out this way because of the synthetic marijuana? More specifically what did it do to my brain that has caused these terrible side effects?


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 31, 2011)

No, I don't. This is a relatively new drug and we're still learning about the potential risks.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

Yeah that's what I was afraid of. Well thanks for your help


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 31, 2011)

I would expect that permanenet damage is unlikely but it will take time to recover from the panic attacks. The problem is that anxiety always triggers more anxiety and the key is to find the combination of medication(s) and therapy that will menablew you to interrupt the vicious cycle and gain control opver the anxiety spikes.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jul 31, 2011)

Yeah well I don't even really mind the anxiety anymore I just want these thoughts to go away and be able to enjoy life.


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## Daniel (Jul 31, 2011)

> Ive questioned existence before my bad experience but not to the point where it has interfered with my life.



BTW, to quote myself:



> Those with depression may be attracted to existential thinking as a way to rationalize their depression symptoms of anhedonia, social withdrawal, etc.
> 
> http://forum.psychlinks.ca/depression/22186-am-i-depressed-or-just-deep.html




---------- Post added at 11:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:03 PM ----------




> I just want these thoughts to go away



Can you see a therapist to help you process these thoughts?  Existential thinking that is debilitating thrives on _all-or-nothing_ thinking and other cognitive distortions.   You mention that you have seen therapists before, but are you seeing one now?

For example, cognitive distortions in Hamlet:



> *Depression and Negative Thinking: A Cognitive Approach to Hamlet*
> Morin, Gertrude. Mosaic 25.1 (1992): 1-12.
> 
> Using the cognitive-behavior approach, this essay hopes to demonstrate that "*Hamlet is, essentially, a portrayal of a tortured, depressed young man who loses his way in the labyrinth of his negative thoughts*" (2). Rather than agree with Freud's assessment of Hamlet as a victim of the unconscious, this article presents the protagonist as the responsible party of a "common occurrence" - depression (2). Hamlet reacts to the loss of his father and his mother's hasty remarriage "by employing negative schematic processes" - learned responses (3). His soliloquies reveal examples of "cognitive logic error that leads to and reinforces the depressive's negative view" (4): Hamlet's fascination with death reflects "selective abstraction," in which the positive aspects of life are overlooked (5-6), in favor of "absolutist, dichotomous thinking," which views death as the "principal reality" (6); he suffers from the cognitive error of "overgeneralization" when he concludes that Gertrude's flaws extend to all women (7-8); his poor prediction for the marriage of Claudius and Gertrude (and thus the creation of a self-fulfilling prophesy) demonstrates "arbitrary inference" (8); Hamlet's various methods of self-criticism include "magnification and minimization" (9), "inexact labeling" (9-10), as well as "self-coercive" thoughts (10). According to this approach, the depressed person "thinks him/herself into an impaired mood" (11). While literary studies may benefit from the new insights of cognitive-behavioral research, the simultaneous hope is that psychologists, researchers, and patients may benefit from reading Hamlet (11).
> ...


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## cwilliams1591 (Aug 8, 2011)

I am currently seeing a therapist and on medication. Nothing seems to get better in fact just today I almost felt like I was "tripping" again while I was eating dinner.


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 8, 2011)

This might be a flashback, in which case they will gradually diminish. 

Does your therapist or your doctor have any experience with the after-effects of spice use?


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## cwilliams1591 (Aug 8, 2011)

Neither doctor or therapist have experience with the synthetic marijuana. My therapist specialized in anxiety and OCD. 

I have been told that there is not enough research on this drug to know enough about it and the effects it has on people. I don't know why it had this effect on me. I have had anxiety issues in the past but never these obsessive thoughts and unfamiliarity with the world and existence


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 8, 2011)

It appears that flashbacks are quite common with synthetic marijuana. No information on how long they last.


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## cwilliams1591 (Aug 8, 2011)

I hope this drug becomes illegalized. There's way too many stories of people going into the ER and going crazy from this drug


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## David Baxter PhD (Aug 8, 2011)

So do I. It is already illegal in Europe and there are proposed amendments to drug laws to make it illegal in Australia and many states in the US. I'm not sure what Canada is doing about it yet, though.


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## cwilliams1591 (Aug 8, 2011)

The US has a maybe 9 states that have it illegalized. I am from Texas and I know anyone can walk to a gas station or smoke shop and purchase the various types of synthetic marijuana


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## ct1 (Oct 12, 2011)

cwilliams, i am experiencing the exact same things a month and a half after one use. i often have thoughts about not actually existing, or being in a different world. i feel like i am tripping periodically, and my eyes appear to be glossy. my panic attacks only occurred during the first week after first use, but i still experience other anxiety symptoms. i have a psych appointment at the end of the month, and i have been to a doctor and an eye doctor; no one seems to understand that i haven't had these problems prior to first time use of synthetic. i can't sleep, and i see what seems to be a glow around lights, along with double vision to certain things such as white words on a dark background.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

This article was my first find when researching this topic.  It led me to investigate further and has led me to believe that this is exactly the source of my daughter's issues.  

She is 19 yrs old and currently admitted to our local hospital's psychiatric unit.  I have questioned several of her friends and determined that she had been using it for about 2 months and had been developing symptoms which she was hiding from us.  Symptoms which included hearing voices, talking to herself and stating that the TV or radio were talking to her.  She finally brought it out into the open with us 2 weeks ago at which time I immediately took her for a psychiatric assessment.  They did not feel that she was a risk to herself or others and therefore did not warrant admission to a facility.  

Over the next couple of days her condition deteriorated.  The symptoms she manifested were paranoid delusions, auditory hallucinations, anxiety, agitation, insomnia, severely decreased appetite with significant weight loss, and loss of interest in everything she had previously shown interest in.  She was not sleeping, not eating and becoming increasingly agitated and anxious.  We went to ER but still did not admit her, they gave her Ativan by mouth and sent us home.  She was still not on any routine medications at this time.  She slept some after the Ativan but the following night woke me at 2:30am begging me to erase her mind stating that she couldn't take it anymore.  I tried to get her to go to the hospital but she kept stating she could not go because they would never let her leave and she go crazy. 

 I called the original assessing facility and explained the situation.  They were able to get her admitted immediately to the crisis center, an inpatient treatment facility for drugs, alcohol and mental health.  While these people were wonderful initially, I don't believe they were fully equipped to deal with the situation either.  She was there for 3 days and eventually say a nurse practitioner after 2 days.  She was started on Riserdal 0.5mg at bedtime and Vistaril as needed.  She initially would not take the Vistaril and they didn't inform me of this.  I encouraged her to take it to help calm her.  She was still not sleeping or eating, just lying in bed most of the time.  The night of her 3rd day she called me again at 2:30 in the morning stating to me, "You know the man that's been after me?  Well he has me now.  He knows our address and where we live.  He's threatening to hurt you and daddy.  He's threatening to kill the dogs."  

All she would tell me was that the things he was saying were disgusting.  She started to speak to him with me on the phone and called him a sick "f***".  I immediately called the facility and they assured me they would take care of her.  By 8:30 that morning she was transferred to the ER.  When we arrived she was much calmer but all she would say was that he was disgusting, a pedophile, and wanted to lock her in his basement.  Initially the assessor was planning to send her back to the inpatient facility as she wouldn't talk to her and denied any thoughts of hurting herself or others.  I explained that this was not normal for her, this had come on recently and she had no psychiatric history.  

My daughter has always been slightly anxious and somewhat introverted.  She is uncomfortable in new or strange situations but by no means so introverted that she can not function.  I always assumed it was normal shyness.  She did have some evidence of depression related to life changes: graduation, unsure of what she wanted to do, feeling stuck in the same rut while her friends moved on.  Normal things for a kid her age.  Anyways, they did admit her to the PICU.  The Risperdal was increased to 1mg twice daily, then three times daily and is now receiving 0.5mg in am and 3mg in pm.  He also started Celexa about 4 days ago but I am unclear on the dosage.  

We were unable to see her for 72 hours but once we were allowed to visit it broke my heart.  I expected some sedation but she was very groggy, appeared extremely depressed and would not eat at all.  For several days all we were able to get into her were 3 to 4 bites of food at most and some fluids.  She kept asking when she would come home.  I kept telling her she had to eat and drink, flush her system, and start participating in things.  So now she is eating better but not nearly enough.  She complains of her stomach frequently either nausea or cramping when she eats.  But, she tries to eat for me.  

She is now admitting to using the synthetic marijuana on a daily basis for at least the past 2 months.  She is cognitively intact for the most part, sometimes forgetful but I am sure that is the medication.  She answers questions appropriately but does drift off at times and we can tell when she is inside her head or talking to someone in her head.  I continue to remain fearful of a serious mental illness but still can not help but feel that this substance had something to do with this.  I have read many articles as well as stories from other parents going through this same thing.  There have been several personal accounts of it taking weeks to months for their children to return to normal.  Every article I have read listing the symptoms of this drug she has shown except for suicidal ideation.  But, then again, I am not certain that she has not had suicidal thoughts just is smart enough to not admit them.  My life has stopped at this point as I can think of nothing else and care about nothing else but helping my baby return home and back to normal.  All I want is for her to live a life free from torment and the tortures of her own mind.  It breaks my heart seeing her suffer so horribly.


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## David Baxter PhD (Dec 27, 2011)

Part of the difficulty for medical practitioners is that this drug has emerged into common use only recently, so most still do not have a lot of knowledge or experience with symptoms such as those experienced by your daughter.

Thank you for sharing this with us, Karri. I hope your daughter continues to improve and that all of you will be able to return to a normal life in the near future.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

Thank you for your kind words.  The physician told me that because this is her first episode he has diagnosed psychosis, NOS and mood disorder NOS.  I totally understand both of those.  He did express to me that it should resolve in 4 to 5 days.  But, from what I have read online that is not necessarily so.  She is definitely experiencing a psychotic episode and we are all unclear as to the cause.  He did ask about her drug use and I was only able to tell him what I knew.  She did admit some use to him as well.  But, he stated to me, she does not look like a drug user.  I honestly do not feel that she is deeply entrenched in drugs but was just experimenting, perhaps even self medicating for the depression and anxiety.  Prior to all of this she had admitted to drinking rather heavily to "deal" with her anxiety in social situations.  We discussed the problems with alcohol and she had stopped drinking.  My long term plan is certainly for counseling and psych services as well as drug and alcohol counseling.  

I am dealing with a lot of self recrimination for not getting her professional help sooner for the depression and anxiety.  I honestly did not realize it was this severe but still blame myself for not seeking help for her sooner.  At the time, I was concerned that talking to a professional would cause her anxiety to increase.  All we can do now is continue to allow the professionals to treat her and hope she continues to improve day by day.  I tell myself daily, One Day at a Time!


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## cwilliams1591 (Dec 27, 2011)

Tell your daughter to hang in there. It has been 7 months since I had my episode and I'm a whole lot better. I'm not 100% yet but i have come a long way since I had my bad experience with the drug. I'm sorry you and your daughter have to go through this because believe me I know it's tough. But she will get better it just takes some time.


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## Retired (Dec 27, 2011)

cwilliams1591 said:
			
		

> It has been 7 months since I had my episode and I'm a whole lot better.



Glad to hear about your improvement.  What treatment did you receive that has worked for you?


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## cwilliams1591 (Dec 27, 2011)

I've been on a few different medications. I started out with Zoloft which I took for about 4 1/2 months until my doctor changed it to lexapro because the Zoloft wasn't really working. I was also taking zyprexa along with the Zoloft and lexapro but recently came off the zyprexa. I also have been going to therapy appts every one to two weeks. But I think the time is what has been most effective. It takes time for medication to work and time to get over such a bad experience. I'm still dealing with a detachment feeling or better known as depersonalization. Sometimes I just think its all in my head but i can't help but feel that way. And from what I've read and learned there is no real treatment for this.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

cwilliams, thank you for sharing.  I am sorry that you have had to experience this as well.  I know in my heart that it is going to take time.  It helps to know we are at least heading in the right direction.  I worry about the thoughts she has because it seems to both my husband and I that she is holding something more back.  It's as if she wants to let it out but is afraid to.  I am hoping that soon she will talk with someone and share what it is.  All I can do right now is to keep telling her that we are there for her no matter what.  I tell her frequently that there is nothing in this world that will make me stop loving her.  I guess it hurts to think she doubts this.  But, I won't stop telling her that regardless.


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## Chain Lightning (Dec 27, 2011)

I held stuff back from my parents and others regarding my bipolar.  My reasons were: they would judge me (and they would have), I was ashamed that I wasn't functioning normal, some of it was too traumatic...etc.  I ended up having to help myself later in life.  Just make sure at some point, she really feels safe telling you, you may be right there could be something else...don't try to dig it out of her either.  It takes time.  Good luck.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

Thanks Chain Lightning, that is something I have kind of sensed.  I told my husband not to push or ask too many questions, know when to back off a bit and allow her to come forward.  She has always been the type of personality that closes down when you push too hard, even as a small child.  So I am used to that.  I just fear now that if we push too hard or scare her or even give her the sense that she can not trust us that she will totally close off.  I told her the other day, that maybe she would feel more comfortable talking to a therapist.  I further explained that anything she discussed would be kept confidential, even from us if that's what she wanted.  She looked at me as if she was thinking that over.  As a parent you want to know what's hurting your child but I have to learn to let her decide what I need to know.


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## Chain Lightning (Dec 27, 2011)

That's what I was going to suggest next...about her talking to therapist instead...that way she gets the help she needs with it but the independence and privacy.  Even though you may not know what was bothering her you know she is being helped.  As far as I can see, I think you are right on and doing the right things.  As a past experimenter of psychedelic drugs myself, I think she may need to process everything she experienced with the "spice".  These experiences can be intense, traumatic and unveil parts of ourselves we did not know.  I was bipolar as a child and very young adult (psychotic symptoms included) and my drug use and experimenting came later in life.   I used to post on here from time to time...but was afraid to come out and say what was bothering me.  But those trip experiences were enough to trigger more manic episodes..every time I took LSD it made me instantly manic for months.  But other than that, it opened doors (sorry lol) to parts of myself I kept hidden...it was a lot to process and understand...make sure she has an outlet.  Art and music were mine.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

Everything you said makes perfect sense.  She is and always has been very intelligent and creative.  She has always used music as an outlet as well as words, in writing that is.  I will make sure she has every opportunity to express and process what she is experiencing.  I believe a large part of her hesitancy with being forthcoming is as you stated previously, a fear that others will judge her.  She has always been a worrier type of person and thinks excessively about things.  I see that as contributing to her difficulties now.  She is over thinking and over processing things in her mind and is afraid of the reactions of others if she lets it out.  She definitely needs an outlet. 

This also raises a question that I have struggled with.  How exactly should we manage her delusional or paranoid thoughts?  Also, how do we manage her obvious auditory hallucinations?   In practice I have been attempting to comfort and reassure her as much as possible.  I don't want to negate anything she says but I do want to comfort her and attempt to provide feelings of safety and security.  Does anyone have any good suggestions for managing these issues and providing her with reality based direction?


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## Chain Lightning (Dec 27, 2011)

ARG! I just deleted my reply. 

I say if she shows in new interest in anything esp creative encourage her.

I heave learned over the years that I can identify hallucinations as unusual.  Ex; I was manic and cleaning the house and I heard children running and playing but I knew they were all in my head.  I just ignore them and things I see.   With depression its harder, I was eating hamburger one time but it looked rotten and smelled bad...I decided it wasn't real when it looked like nasty little monsters...but still couldn't eat it.  Delusions are harder for some reason...if I think somebody is calling the cops on me for stealing (even though I didn't) because of the fear, its hard to let it go, I keep thinking it.  

Just acknowledge what she sees, thinks, hears without disputing it...but obviously don't reinforce it.  Maybe ask her if she thinks [insert hallucination] seems unusual to her too and that you haven't even seen it.  That way she can work out in her own mind how to cope with it.  Maybe encourage her to write/draw them and what she thinks they really mean...if she can connect them to something.  They should give you more tips (assuming she's still in their care) when you take her home.  You could even get a therapist for you and your husband if you need to.


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## Karri (Dec 27, 2011)

Thank you that is very helpful.  At this point in time she is really not receiving any kind of therapy, just trying to stabilize her condition with the medications and encourage her to come out of her room.  They have pretty much just been observing her so far.  We do have an appointment to meet with the doctor in the morning so I am sure we will be given more instructions then.  I want her home so badly but at the same time am fearful of making things more difficult for her because of something I may mistakenly do wrong.


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## Chain Lightning (Dec 28, 2011)

You're learning about this and may do some little thing mistakenly wrong...but the fact that you want to and are seeking the right things to do, is the best thing for her.    I wish my parents did that for me.


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## Karri (Dec 28, 2011)

As do I Chain Lightning, I know as parents we all make mistakes and I think we grieve those mistakes for the rest of our lives.  I certainly wish I had done a lot of things differently but all I can do now is move forward.  I like to think that both of my daughters know that they are loved unconditionally.  But, I fear that is something my youngest wrestles with.  She has self esteem issues as well as the anxiety and depression.  I know she has always spent a lot of time in her head, worrying and "what if'ing" everything.  I keep telling her that she comes by that naturally because her father and I are both that type of people also.  It's what we are and that you learn to compensate for it with age.  I thought she was just like us and that she would learn to deal with her worries and her mind as we did.  I never realized that her issues were affecting her so deeply.  I am just thankful that we were able to see when things were going badly and that she wasn't away at school or on her own without any support.  I have to keep telling myself, One day at a time, and to take the good days with the bad.  Yesterday she was angry with us and would barely talk.  She was shut down, which she always does when angry.  We had to learn to give her the space and walk away until she is ready to talk about things.  Today is a new day.  Thank you so much for your insights and sharing your story.  It has helped me tremendously.  You are a very brave and strong person.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jan 23, 2012)

Hey karri how is your daughter doing?


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## Karri (Jan 23, 2012)

She is stable right now, thanks for asking.  Still experiencing delusions but much calmer and engaged in day to day life.  She is in counseling and follow up with a psychiatrist to manage the medications she is still on.  Everyday she gets a little bit better but still anxious in social settings.  I keep trying to take it one day at a time and to stay positive.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jan 23, 2012)

That's good to hear I'm glad she's doing better. She will continue to get better it jus takes a while. If you would like tell her she can email me any time at cwilliams1591[at]mail.com. Sometimes hearing a story similar to your own helps you realize you are not alone and others have dealt with the same problem. I hope she continues to improve. I still have my ups and downs but I sure have come a long way in 8 months


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## Karri (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you CWilliams, I will certainly let her know that when she is better able to concentrate.  It's weird, she had her first counseling session last night and since that time has had an increase in her paranoid delusions.  I have no idea what was discussed and didn't pressure her to tell me.  So I don't know if that triggered something but it seems plausible.  When she was discharged from the hospital the doc told us she has all the symptoms of schizophrenia but he was only diagnosing her with psychosis at this time.  He instructed us to continue her meds, use close observation and intensive therapy for the next 6 months.  I took this to mean they will determine a final diagnosis based on how she responds over the next 6 months.  They have not been very intensive with the therapy but after yesterday it seems as if that may not be a bad thing right now if this is how she reacts.  She still has difficulty concentrating and attending to activities right now.  But, she does engage better with us.  It's going to take time, I know that.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jan 24, 2012)

Wow I can't believe how much it has effected her. I feel bad nobody should have to go through something like that. Hopefully they will soon have a better understanding how this drug effects certain people. Maybe the therapy appointment brought out everything she has been going through and that's why she is experiencing the paranoid delusions. And what exactly do you mean by delusions? Is she hearing things or thinking someone is after her or what? I hope she continues to get better and lll continue tto pray for you her and your family.


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## Karri (Jan 24, 2012)

She has paranoid delusions most of the time, but has had a few grandiose delusions.  Those are easier to deal with, the paranoia is the worst.  She believes that someone is coming after her, us and even our dogs.  She has gotten so bad at times she doesn't want anyone near windows and believes that there is software implanted in her brain so that "they" can see and hear everything she does and says.  She has obviously been hearing voices and has also admitted to it both to us and the professionals.  She has other symptoms that are clearly indicative of schizophrenia from everything I have read.  I have done nothing but read since this started.  There's no obvious connection family wise that we are able to trace but she had the drug experimentation.  That seems to be a big factor in the things I have read.  I initially felt the spice may have caused this, now I believe it just may have brought it all to the forefront.  She is clearly in a psychotic state which has now been going on for almost 7 weeks, to our knowledge anyways.  It may very well have been going on much longer and we were just not aware.  She was clearly hiding some things from  us one of them being the fact that she was hearing things.  So, it is much more than just the after effects of the drug now.  It took me awhile to come to that acceptance.  I am sure that's not unusual.  Who wants to acknowledge that their child has a mental illness?  I still believe the spice contributed to it but I accept the fact that this was probably something that would have shown itself anyways.  Either way, I can't blame any one thing or incident.  I can't blame anything or anyone to be honest.  I had to accept that as well because I laid alot of blame at my own feet for some time.  Why didn't I see something sooner, why didn't I do something before I did, why didn't I know that she was in so much distress?  I kept asking myself how was it I could not have seen this.  I came to realize that she was very good at hiding things and she was afraid.  She didn't want anyone to know.  It wasn't my fault.  But, I still blame myself at times.  Why didn't she feel she could come to me with this?  Wow, sorry, didn't mean to go off into such detail.  I really appreciate your thinking of her and your concern.  I know things will get better in time.  I have hope and faith and try to stay positive all the time.  It doesn't always work out that way but I try. I know that she needs me now more than she ever has and for me to lose my faith and my strength does her no good.  I am just happy to know that you are doing better all the time.  I think of you as well and keep you in my thoughts and prayers.


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## cwilliams1591 (Jan 24, 2012)

Wow she definitely is going through a lot. And so are you. I can understand where you put that blame on yourself even though it's not your fault at all. I have given myself such a hard time sincey incident wishing I would have never tried this stupid drug. But I have to tell myself it's not my fault even though yes I did do this drug but how was I supposed to know this would happen. My mom also has put a lot of blame on herself. She is a recovering alcoholic and addict and has history of mental illness as well as my dad. And you were right when you said your daughter would have had to face this eventually. Maybe not to this level but something along the lines of this. My psychiatrist told me that basically what the drug did to me was brought out every insecurity and problem I had mentally and magnified it. I have always dealt with anxiety throughout my life so I can see where this came from.


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## Karri (Jan 24, 2012)

I am glad to hear that your psychiatrist has a good handle on this.  I think that is also a big problem with this drug, the doctors don't know enough and those that do have any knowledge or experience are few and far between.  The doctor who treated her in the hospital didn't seem to have much knowledge.  All he kept saying was that she didn't look like a drug user and that he didn't think the spice had anything to do with it.  Her psychiatrist now in the community was totally honest with us.  She said there is not enough information but yet she seemed to at least have some knowledge about it.  That kind of reassurred me some.  She was also very honest and even positive about things.  She gave us all some sense of hope.  She didn't make promises but she also didn't give us a sense of doom either.  Regardless of all it, this is still a horrible drug and I feel so bad for all the people out there that think its safe because it's legal.  Hopefully those that know the truth can convince even one person themselves not to use, then something good can come of all this.


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## ali1368 (Feb 3, 2012)

My son has recently been hospitalized with psychosis.  He has spent 4 out of 10 weeks in the psychiatric hospital.  He is on 2 antipsychotic medicines, an anti-depressant and something for side effects.  He smoked spice and it has been 10 weeks.  We don't know if this is temporary psychosis or if something underlying was triggered.  He is only 16 years old and I feel like normal life for him is over.


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## Karri (Feb 4, 2012)

Dear Ali, Do not give up hope.  It has been the same for my daughter and about the same duration of time.  But, she is getting better all the time.  She is still psychotic and delusional but she has more insight and is more aware of what is going on.  I understand how difficult it is to see your child going through this as well as all the thoughts that go through your mind because of the different meds used and possible diagnosis.  I've been there and had all those same thoughts.  It is what it is and we will deal with this just like everything else.  I refuse to get hung up on a diagnosis.  The doctor told us she has all the symptoms and behaviors of schizophrenia now.  I refuse to let that guide us, if that is what it is, then that is what it is.  You can read a million and ten things that frighten and horrify you about any diagnosis and only see a handful that give you hope.  I firmly believe that nothing worthwhile in this life comes easy.  I also firmly believe that with the love and support of family and friends we can accomplish whatever we put our minds to.  I am applying that to myself as well as my daughter and her recovery.  I will never give up hope nor stop supporting her.  I too felt that a normal life was going to be out of reach for my daughter.  Now I refuse to let that be a part of my thoughts.  I wont let her give up and I wont give up.  These things take time.  In the beginning I would get down and depressed and want to give up everytime I didn't think she was progressing enough or fast enough.  I know myself, I expect things to happen overnight or within days.  If nothing else, this whole experience has taught me patience.  Patience within my life and god knows tons of patience with my daughter.  Never give up hope, never stop trying for that next small achievement, and most of all never let those negative thoughts take over.  IT WILL GET BETTER!  My bestfriend tells me that everyday.  It had reached the point where I waited to hear her say it, now I say it to myself.  I don't know if anything I have said helps you but I felt your pain and your need for support in your words.  If nothing else, know that I understand exactly how you feel and you are not alone out there.  Neither of us are alone out here.  There are many others who know and understand our pain.  They will support and help you.   I will be thinking of you and your son and saying a prayer for you as I do for my daughter everyday.  Keep your chin up and stay positive.


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## ali1368 (Feb 4, 2012)

Thank you Karrie.  I worry so much about him, this has been so terrifying.  When he goes off, he becomes so paranoid that he is a danger to himself and others.  At one point he was going to cut the electrical wires coming into the house because the dishwasher was making a strange noise.  The saddest thing is that when he first starts to have a relapse he knows it is coming and he is scared.  He smoked this stuff because he had been suspended from school, sent to drug classes and needed to be clean for 90 days.  He turned to spice because it didn't show up onthe drug tests.  Last summer I tried to get him in to see a psycholgist to try to help him get off of drugs and they wouldn't see him until he was drug free for 30 days.  His current phychiatrist is retiring and now the only office that I can get him into is the one that refused to see him last summer.  This has been so frustrating.  Patience is hard, prayers are much needed.  Thanks for your response and kind words.


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## Karri (Feb 4, 2012)

I so understand your pain.  When my daughter becomes paranoid it is difficult.  Having to watch her in mental torment, knowing what she fears is not real, and not being able to show her she has nothing to fear breaks my heart.  We go thru phases, the paranoia lessens and it becomes the self inflated, grandiose delusion, then those lessen and the paranoia increases.  It's so hard at times when you can't find a doctor or therapist that is understanding.  I have been fortunate thus far with her doctor.  She is following up with a female doctor now which helps but the therapist bothered me from the onset.  She insulted me  and outright lied to me from the first session.  I am having difficulty building up any confidence in her but Ive kept my thoughts to myself and not let my daughter know how I feel.  I started keeping a journal of her behaviors and day to day responses to the meds.  I write on the computer and print it out for her doctor so I did the same with the therapist.  She came at me as if I were "keeping secrets" from my daughter.  I couldn't fathom why she would take it that way or come at me with that attitude.  I've spoken with my daughter about it and explained why I do the journaling, that it's not secretive and she stated that she understood.  Plus, it helped me to feel useful when it came to her care.  That really is the hardest part..feeling hopeless and helpless.  You want so badly to make it all better and you can't.  It helps me to feel useful as well as identify patterns of what might increase her agitation or paranoia.  Thankfully she has been cooperative with most of her care.  We did also have some issues for awhile with her attempting to leave the house at odd hours, once during a bad snow storm, another at 4:30 in the morning and we had no idea she was gone.  We found her wandering in front of the high school a mile down the road.  That terrified me beyond belief.  I kept thinking what if someone tried to pick her up, would she in her mental state, get in the car with a stranger?  So now we bought little home alarms from the hardware store.  They attach to the door and doorjamb, you can turn them on and off.  They alert us if the door is opened.   There are so many things that frighten and worry you on a daily basis.  But, you have to take one day at a time.  IT WILL GET BETTER!


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## cwilliams1591 (Mar 29, 2012)

Hi karri, how is your daughter doing? Is she getting better or showing improvement? I still think about you and her daily and continue to pray for you guys.

Ali how is your son doing?

I've been getting better. This past week was a little tough for some reason I had an onset of bad anxiety and no idea where it was coming from. But it has subsided and I'm doing a lot better


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## Karri (Mar 29, 2012)

Thank you so much for asking.  She is doing amazingly well.  

We have been faithfully taking the meds, attending therapy sessions and seeing the psychiatrist now for over 3 months.  She is now beginning to ask "real" questions about these events and is becoming more reality oriented.  She told me the other day that she really feels it was all related to the spice use.  Her psychiatrist has her diagnosed but I am still unclear on what exactly.  I only found this out from the social worker who initiated a social security application on her behalf.  He mentioned bipolar, schizoaffective and schizophrenia, stating he wasn't sure, or perhaps he didn't want to be the one to officially give us the diagnosis.  We will discuss this further with her doc on next visit.  

At that time, of the SS application, she really started to ask more questions and became fearful over the mention of schizophrenia.  This seemed to be the major factor that tipped her over into reality.  If that makes sense.  She began to question everything.  She is talking to me alot more about what has been going on in her mind, the things she was thinking and most of all what the "voices" were telling her.  She says that she does not believe she is schizophrenic but that the spice caused all of this.  I keep stressing to her that it may also be that the meds are really working now. 

 She did state that she wants to keep taking them because she doesn't want to go through that again.  I want her to understand that we can't just stop them because she feels better and I truly believe she accepts and understands this.  I now know that there were a few traumatic events that occurred around the same time as the drug use so they contributed as well.  But, overall, I am very optimistic.  She is even starting to take a little bit of responsibility with her medication.  I still make sure they are taken and set them up in a daily pill container.  We discuss regularly the importance of no more experimentation with drugs and getting things out with her therapist.  She has been very agreeable and cooperative with everything.  She is even getting out again with some of her friends and family, leaving the house.  She is doing so much better in public, not having anxiety amongst strangers or becoming overstimulated.  That has been a huge step forward for her.  She was so crippled by her anxiety and paranoia, not to mention any stimulation of any kind.  

She is reading books and listening to music again also which were some of her favorite activities.  I tried several times to get her to write as well and she is doing that now also.  What about I don't know and I don't ask.  I just told her to try it and that perhaps it would help her to put things down in writing that she could look at later and maybe see in a different light.  I try not to be too nosy but after the past 3 months its hard lol.  

I really appreciate your concern and thank you so much for all your helpful insights and encouragement.  This space has been a haven and such a support to me since this all started.  I've found a few other support groups and though they have been helpful, this is the first place I came to and it has been the best source of comfort, information and has put me into contact with many wonderful people such as yourself.  Thank you again for all your help and concern.


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## ali1368 (Mar 29, 2012)

My son is doing better as far as the psychosis is concerned.  He is on medication and it is working, however, he insists on smoking marijuana and the psychitrist has warned him that a mental break could happen and the psychosis could be permanent.  He is seeing a psychologist that is doing absolutely no good.  He is so defiant that he doesn't want to be told what to do. I would think that he would be scared to death of the consequences.  
I appreciate your asking and hope that you feel better.  If you have any suggestions I would welcome them.


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## heartofthorns (Apr 4, 2012)

I'm sorry this happened to your son.  My son has been psychotic since last October, after smoking spice.  You already know for your son to continue to smoke spice or any kind of weed is very bad for him at this point.  I think I read your son is only 16?  Does he go to school?  What state are you in?  Is synthetic marijuana not illegal in your state?  If your son has recovered enough to comprehend and understand things, I'll be glad to send you a link to my son's blog.  His life has been ruined and I have no idea if he will ever recover.  My son is 27 years old, was working a full time job and going to college.  Instead of graduating with his degree next month, he is pacing around our swimming pool, talking to himself most days.  This is such a terrible, terrible thing.  I would do everything I could to keep your son away from these substances.  If he has recovered, he is one of the lucky ones.  Many never do.  Good luck!


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## ali1368 (Apr 4, 2012)

We live in Maryland, one of the few states that spice is still sold.  Every time they ban one kind, the chemical compound is change and it is sold under a different name.  My son has been suspended from his school until next January.  We are looking into other options for his education now.  For now he is still funtioning but he is playing with fire and doesn't seem to worry.  I would love a link to your son's blog.  Is your son on medication? If so isn't it helping?  My son had to try several combinations of medications before it worked.  It's so sad to hear of people ruining their lives with this stuff.


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## heartofthorns (Apr 4, 2012)

Oh man, that is terrible it's not been banned in your state yet.  Is their legislation pending?  Individual counties can also ban it.  I went round and round with my county about it.  They were selling it in several stores here and this is a college town so it was really bad news.  Our Governor only signed the law banning it a couple of weeks ago when another young man here passed away after smoking it.  I don't know if you are on facebook but I'm on a couple of groups there that post about the laws, issues and other things regarding the use of spice and they have been a lot of support to me.  It's amazing when you start talking to people how many lives this poison has affected.  I haven't updated my son's blog in awhile because there hasn't been a change in his condition and it's just depressing to even write in it.  I will update in a couple of days though.

My son is on several medications and they brought him out of the horrific psychotic state he went into that landed him in the mental hospital for two months but he is far from recovered.  I'm actually considering residental care for him now and it's breaking  my heart.


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## paul d (Apr 21, 2012)

I accidentally smoked spice for the first time exactly a week ago from today. 

I had a beer from a six pack of mine and was offered some "marijuana". Now, I have heard all the horror stories with spice and never wanted anything to do with it,  so, when I took a hit from a pipe "bowl" (really big hit) it tasted nothing like marijuana and irritated my lungs in a completely different way. With marijuana, when i start coughing, i instantly get high, but not with this stuff.  after a few minutes i started to feel high, but it was different than the high of marijuana. it had similarities from a visual standpoint, but was missing a lot of qualities from a mental standpoint that marijuana offers and that are good qualities. for instance, i can get really focused on something, or talk forever about an intresting topic. with the spice high, things werent really interesting. i had no interest to even think about the the things i was passionate about. also, when i smoke marijuana, cigerette smoke has a different smell to it, i didnt get that smell either. 

after around 15 mins i felt a little anxiety so i started to drink another beer. the anxiety was comming in and out in waves. i thought i would drink a few more beers and it would go away, but ended up getting worse. by my last beer my mind was out of control. i had no control over my thoughts and they were racing along with my thoughts. i tried as hard as i can to collect myself and take control of the situation, but when the waves of, what i call insanity rolled in, there was nothing i can do besides constantly remind myself that it will eventually go away. the thoughts were negative depressing, scary thoughts for the most part. my mind was filled with confusion also. but i was still able to look like i was fine to everyone else. the intensity kept increasing with every wave. 

i got in my car and took off. i was able to drive fine but then i started to see beems of light from the corner of my eye and as i came up to red light (very slowly) i couldnt judge the distance or where i should stop for it(small back road no other cars around) so i pulled onto the shoulder and started contemplating whether i should call an ambulance. my mind is out of control, my heart is pumping out of control, and i'm starting to hallucinate. the hallucinations never got past lasers shooting from the corner of my eyes. i had a break from the intensity because how it comes in waves, and startred driving again. then i started having thoughts of me crashing and dying. i even had thoughts that i was going to turn the wheel into a forest. my mind was torturing me. then as the waves came in and out they were losing intensity, and started becoming more controllable, and it was getting easier to calm myself down, until at once, it just completely went away. almost like turning a light switch on or off. i cant explain the relief i felt. so i ended up driving all the way home. 

when i got home i felt as it didnt even happen. i felt fine but was wore out, and my voice was lost like i was yelling all day even though i barely talked the whole night. i went to sleep easily and woke up fine, but i didnt feel 100%. i felt a little shooken up by it. 2 days later i go to have a beer to calm my nerves a little and i have a panic attack when i get a 1/4 way down. i felt like i didnt know what to do with myself. i have never had a panic attack before this spice garbage, so i poured out the beer and started excercising to drain some energy. it took me 4 hours to calm down, excercising the whole time. i ended up going to the ER as i was worried the effects might come back. the doctor had experience with this and assured me the panic attacks would go away and the alcohol was what made my experience worse. she says the alcohol doesnt allow the drug to break down and actually intensifies the effects. i ended up going home feeling great and took 2 benadryl for sleep. woke up fine. the next day i felt a little worse and had a hard time going to sleep. i finally got myself to sleep and woke up in the middle of the night with a panic attack. went back to the ER, had a bunch of tests done, and got prescribed .5 milligram alprozolam which helped me tremendously. but i was still waking up with small panic attacks and some depression, but would go away quickly. and i felt almost back to 100% throughout the day. 

yesterday the anxiety/panic was almost not there when i woke up. and i woke up today with absaloutly no anxiety, panic or depression, and i feel 100% back to normal. exactly 7 days. thank god because i thought for sure i was gonna be on psych meds for a long time or even the rest of my life because of this spice garbage. although anything can happen, my mind feels as stable and strong as it did before i even smoked it. 

i also have confidence that the other people and their children will recover. some will take longer than others. it depends on how much the have smoked and how long. i only took one big hit and it took me a week! 

any stores that sell this should be boycotted. this poison is the worst drug i have ever done by a long shot and can be purchased at some gas stations.  ridiculous!


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## ali1368 (Apr 21, 2012)

You are very lucky.  This stuff is really scary. Unfortunately, kids never think it will happen to them. I'm glad you feel better, I think my son will eventually recover too.  I would like to have him speak to his peers at school about this, he had a friend in the ER for smoking spice. The kid was in a coma, came out and it must have done something to his brain because he had something like Turrets syndrome.  I'm not sure if that ever went away.  This is the future of our country.


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## paul d (Apr 21, 2012)

i have been doing alot of research on this, even spoke with poison control a few times. poison control has stated that alot of the spice today is being mixed with bath salts which make the recovery alot longer and worse. i tried to get as many professional opinions as i can. my doctor said alcohol makes it worse and i strongly believe this from my experience. although one of the people i spoke with from poison control disagreed(the others i spoke with didnt know), but he said he wasn't positive either. from everything i have collected though, it looks as though most recover. i have read stories that it took people a year before they started to feel normal again. and i have read stories of people developing ocd after smoking this. one guy says he cant stop eating vasaline, even though it tastes terrible to him. as i mentioned in my previous post, i have faith your children will recover with time.  i hope for the best for all of you that have sons and daughters that are still recovering. keep us posted of their recovery. i will be doing more research and will post my findings.


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## Daniel (Apr 28, 2012)

Synthetic Cannabinoid Use Common Among Pot Smokers
_Medscape_, April 27, 2012

About 50% of marijuana users have tried synthetic cannabis, and 22% continued using these synthetic products after a federal ban was enacted in early 2011, a new survey shows...


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## David Baxter PhD (Apr 28, 2012)

That's pretty scary.


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## Daniel (May 10, 2012)

30 hospitalized by tainted spice
May 10, 2012

DEKALB COUNTY, Alabama -- Investigators in DeKalb and Cherokee counties said at least 30 people between 16 and 30 years old have kidney damage because of synthetic drugs.

In a joint press conference, the district attorneys of DeKalb and Cherokee counties said they believe the spice was laced with poison or pesticides.

DeKalk County District Attorney Michael O'Dell said the spice dealer could face assault and attempted murder charges when caught.

O'Dell said the spice users were hospitalized within the last three weeks with* kidney failure*. A teenage patient will be on permanent dialysis for life.

The FBI could be brought in to the investigation. Authorities are contacting the health departments to see if there are more victims.

Investigators are working to find the tainted spice. Once it's found, it will be sent to a lab for testing where it will be top priority.

An emergency ban on synthetic marijuana went into effect in Alabama in October, 2011. The law banning spice went into effect Thursday, ten days after Governor Robert Bentley signed it. Those caught with the drug face possession of a controlled substance, a class C felony...


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## swtadline (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm high on spice right now. It's the only way I have the courage to write that. It's like, when I'm on it I'm thinking clearly, and when I'm sober I am making dumb decisions like smoke it. I fear I am addicted to this spice. I have been smoking it every day for 2 months. I think I may need help to quit it but I'm not ready yet. My life is too screwed up to have nothing.

---------- Post Merged at 06:48 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:25 PM ----------

you can call me Shelby. I have been diagnosed with Bipolar Disorder, OCD, and Borderline Personality Disorder. about early August of this year, I was given a sample of "spice" from a smoker's store. A few weeks later a friend and I were smoking pot and we ran out. I remembered the sample and thought, "yeah, right, this probably won't get us high," cuz it's legal to buy. Boy was I happy to be wrong! It felt like the second or third time I ever got high on pot, about a year before. It was like the time it first really hit me. It was so much fun, it felt so good, like a warm, fuzzy feeling. Very euphoric. It also, I noticed, made me very horny! I looked at the ingredients on the bottle and it said 100% high quality damiana. so I looked up damiana. All it said was that it has been used for years as an aphrodisiac. Boy is that true! It makes me tingle all over and almost like I'm having orgasms without moving from my chair! I'm high right now while writing this because it's the only way I have the courage to write all this. My thinking is somewhat clear and somewhat fuzzy right now. It is wierd. I have one song running through my mind right now, over and over. It is "Strong Enough" by Sheryl Crow. I noticed today that that song, which I've always loved, totally described my love-life...

---------- Post Merged at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 06:25 PM ----------

I'm so tired of being alone, yet I"m surrounded by friends and family. This is what it is like when you are manic depressive. At least on here I have someone to talk to.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 15, 2012)

Are you aware of the risk for enduring psychotic reactions that can occur as a result of using this drug? Is it really worth risking your sanity and your future for a momentary high?

Are you seeing a psychiatrist, psychologist, or other therapist,  Shelby? Are you taking any prescribed medications? or just  self-medicating?


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## swtadline (Oct 15, 2012)

I'm tired of being unnoticed. I have tried the last few years to work and everytime I do, I have a panic/anxiety attack 3 weeks into the job. I havent had a real job in probably a few years also. I tried to get on disability like 3 times and they kept turning me down.  At this moment I am online trying to get a "date" for an hour. It's all I know how to do to keep sane, is try to make some money. The only way I know how. I am still high on the spice right now.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 15, 2012)

Do you have a doctor or mental health professional helping you with your disability application? You need the sort of documentation they can provide.

What about my other questions above?


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## swtadline (Oct 15, 2012)

Yes I'm aware I just dont seem to care right now. But I think that's why i'm writing this to you. I'm trying to do it while high because it's the only way I have the courage to write to anyone about my current problems.  No it's not worth it. Butyet I do it. I'm seeing someone sort of; I went into a crisis center last week or so and talked to someone then this morning I went to the counseling center and all they did was an intake on me, then gave me another appointment next week. I have been prescribed a form of welbutrin, a form of effexor and a form of Abilify.

---------- Post Merged at 07:24 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:07 PM ----------

no I dont really have anyone helping me truly helping me.

---------- Post Merged at 07:28 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:07 PM ----------

I'm so high right now. I'm just typing what I'm thinking. I'm sitting here with a friend, watching some movie with James Stewart. It's got about only half my attention. I'm turned on right now too. This stuff feels so good. I dont like that I love it so much.

---------- Post Merged at 07:41 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:07 PM ----------

I had my boyfriend take it away from me on Saturday night. I didnt smoke any yesterday except what I could get out of the resin in the pipe. Today I decided it had been long enough and I just bought some more.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 15, 2012)

I think you know what you need to do, what has to be step #1, don't you?


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## swtadline (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm going to the bar in a few to see my new girlfriend Sadie. I let her try the spice the other night. She flipped out about the third time she hit it. I don't think she'll smoke it again. which is good. because I dont want to addict someone to it . Now that I've read tonight on the internet do I know it is bad for me. I need to stop. I'll be back online in a couple hours to write more. but right now I'm going to go see Sadie, and since I'm turned on by the spice right now all I can think about is wanting to be with her. We just met recently, and she is so beautiful... why is that turning me on? I should be with just my boyfriend.

---------- Post Merged at 07:57 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:56 PM ----------

Step one is admit I think I smoke it too much.

---------- Post Merged at 10:00 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:56 PM ----------

I just got back from the bar, and I took my best buddy with me, Martin. I introduced him to Sadie. we all talked soberly about our experience with spice. He said he didnt like that he would sometimes feel his heart palpitate. Sadie says she didn't like the overreaction that she had on it but loved the rest of it.

---------- Post Merged at 10:12 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:56 PM ----------

I'm watching American Dad right now. It's extra funny tonight for some reason, lol. Its' about Stan having Francine's mind erased. King of the Hill was on earlier too, that was pretty funny. I'm trying to stay as high as I can for some reason.

---------- Post Merged at 10:31 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:56 PM ----------

I'm in love with 2 men. They are both Native American. One is older and wiser, one is younger and for some reason fascinates me, I can't seem to break free of his spell. I know I'm rambling on right now but I'm high on spice so I don't care what I write. I'd just like someone to talk to, and listen to me for once. How it feels to be bi-polarl and have BPD at the same time and have a "low". 

---------- Post Merged at 10:55 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 07:56 PM ----------

The older one we'll just call Bear. He's in his early 50s and the most fearless man I've ever met. I met him earlier this year. He's my only hope for getting truly better and off this drug. He says he's always loved me, even though we dated and dated others at the same time. I was also "working" as well. I hope he will give me the courage to stop doing this.


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## David Baxter PhD (Oct 16, 2012)

Substance use and abuse is not going to help anything. Are you taking any prescribed medications for bipolar disorder and/or BPD?


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## swtadline (Oct 19, 2012)

Today is Friday. I was bad the other night and tried cocaine during a 4 way with 3 guys I'd just met. I felt bad about it the next day and told my friend Bear about it. He helped me stay away from the spice and the sex for the last few days. I know he is what's best for me right now, having someone to be able to talk to and help me stay away but I know it's ultimately my choice. I dont know how long I can last, I broke down yesterday and had some more spice. I didnt have any sex for money but I'm telling you the temptation is overwhelming. Especially since I have no money right now. I'm down to the last of the spice, too. I just dont know what to do with myself anymore. There's the right thing and the wrong thing. There's what I should and what I want to do. It's hard to do the right thing every single day when your mind is always up or down.


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## kbass5005 (Jul 5, 2013)

What type of help should families try to get for someone who is psychotic from spice. I have an 18 year old who wants to do everything on his own and is refusing help. We did get him to see his pediatrician and I was told I may have to do tough love-kick my psychotic son out on the street if he does not calm down or get help. He was hospitalized for 3 days in a psychiatric ward but was not a danger to himself or anyone else. He was released after the 72 hour hold. We attempted to get him into rehabilitation but the facility would not admit him because of the delusions, bizarre thoughts. 

So what do we do? I have no trust in the medical field at this point. I am being told he was probably predisposed to a mental illness even though we have no history of mental illness in the family. We cannot do anything for him since he is 18 and refusing help. I feel no one really wants to deal with this situation. I am beginning to lose hope that he will recover since no one is lifting a hand to help, everyone seems clueless about this spice and I am being told by 2 health professionals that this is how he is going to be probably for the rest of his life.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 5, 2013)

Is he still using spice? Is he still using other street drugs?

I haven't dealt with this myself but substance induced psychotic reactions are not necessarily or not always permanent. What I have learned about spice reactions is that they can take some time to normalize, i.e., weeks or months rather than days depending on the severity of the reaction. But that of course assumes the individual doesn't continue to use spice in the interim.

While it is true that some individuals predisposed to schizophrenia may trigger a first episode psychotic reaction due to street drugs, and while that may be the case for your son, again it is not necessarily the case. The symptoms of substance induced psychosis are very similar to those of schizophrenia and really the only way to definitively tell the difference is to see what happens over time.

Finding help for someone who doesn't want it is difficult at the best of times. As you have learned, the only way he can be admitted as an involuntary patient is if he poses an immediate threat to self or others, or if he is arrested for a criminal code offense and is issued a court order to comply with treatment. Sadly, that is the state of western law currently. The intent is of course prevent abuses within the system; the outcome sadly means that individuals with little or no insight into their illness often go without the treatment they need.


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## kbass5005 (Jul 5, 2013)

He says he is not using now. I do not think he is, he is either staying at our house or his grandmothers' apartment. He was given risperidone after he left the hospital but he refuses to take it and I am not going to force him (as if I could). I am a little apprehensive anyway since no one really seems to know anything about what was actually in the stuff he smoked-does he really need another substance in his body. He had also told me he had gotten Vyvanse from a friend or friends at school during the school year to help him concentrate- he was unaware that the marijuana and spice he was using was causing a lot of his inability to concentrate. When he is at home he is either angry and delusional. Sometimes he starts to laugh, later he will cry. He has been outside rapping at the top of his lungs. I am reading some books to help me deal with the behaviors because I have not reacted well at times. i have screamed at him to shut up when he is loud. I have called the police when he cornered me and yelled at me- making him more angry and distrustful of me. I feel like all his normal issues are magnified by a thousand. He wants to be on his own and support himself-the delusion is he is going to be a rapper and sign a contract with a famous rapper and I am keeping him from doing that. It has been very hard to listen to him rant- he will just talk and talk and talk- if you do not agree with him he feels we are not being supportive, if we do support him he gets suspicious and argues about something else. My biggest fear is he will not recover and be able to have a normal life.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 5, 2013)

I sympathize, kbass. There's little you can do that you're not already doing. The rest is about trying to stay hopeful and giving it time.


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## kbass5005 (Jul 6, 2013)

Karri, i am noticing with my son that any stressful event leads to an increase in psychotic behavior, increased paranoia. My son continues to use marijuana and refuse any kind of treatment.


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## kbass5005 (Jul 18, 2013)

I am hoping you are doing well. My son is still recevering. He refuses treatment. He continues to be psychotic. We had him committed and he was in the hosptial for 7 days. He was discharged on Haldol. He is having jaw pain. He continues to be psychotic. I am worried the Haldol is casuing his jaw pain.

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Hi Karri- I hope yourdaughter is doing well.  Everything you have said about her applies to my son. I am praying for him and all the people affected by this horrible drug. I have come to realize that substance abuse and addiction is a disease.


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## kbass5005 (Jul 20, 2013)

My son has been off drugs for a week. Today he bagan saying "I'm a ******" over and over and then laughing. At first I thought he might be using again but then I wondered if his antipsychotic shot is wearing off. He refuses medicine and just got out of the psych ward 3 days ago. He started "rapping loudly" basically just stringing swear words together. The he rode his bike into traffic to get away form me.  He is also saying bizarre things on facebook- sexual things, talking about how everyone hates him. My husband sys just relax- Son has been gone for 3 hours. After riding his bike out in traffic I worry he might do some other dangerous things help!


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 20, 2013)

If you are worried about him posing a threat to himself or others, you can call 9-1-1 and ask the police to escort him back to the ER for assessment. But as you've already seen, that's a revolving door. They can only hold him long enough to settle him down on medications. Then they have to release him. If he then refuses the medication, he will of course deteriorate until he is once again unstable enough for another involuntary admission. And that cycle continues over and over.

It is the state of current legislation regarding right to refuse treatment. It is supposed to preserve civil liberties but it assumes that it is protecting those civil liberties for individuals who have insight into their own illness or condition. Clearly, individuals with psychotic illnesses lack that insight and judgment, and as a result the system fails them over and over again.

I wish I could give you a more optimistic picture. Sometimes, the best you can hope for is that the patient will commit a minor crime and receive a court treatment order as a disposition. That may keep him on medication long enough for him yo be able to achieve some insioght and clarit.

See:

Anosognosia - Wikipedia

Anosognosia - Treatment Advocacy Center

NAMI | Anosognosia (Lack of Insight) NAMI Fact Sheet


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## cwilliams1591 (Apr 18, 2016)

Anybody still follow this thread? This was one of the first threads I found information from when I experienced a terrible "trip" from synthetic spice. It's sad to see that people are still experimenting with this s***, but having gone through it myself and overcoming it to be where i am today, I want to help anybody that is having the same issue. It took me damn near 4 years to overcome the bad trip and the depression that joined it that I got from the synthetic weed. To give a little back story to whoever may be out there reading...

When I was 19, I was a freshman in college and I quit smoking weed so I could get a job, and at that time, I was introduced to "fake weed" aka spice, k2, salvia, etc. I smoked it a few times and thought it was great because I could still get a similar high, but I wouldn't have to worry about a drug test. I was hanging out with some friends in my door room and one of them pulled some out and loaded a bowl. I took a couple hits and was feeling the effects of it. The bowl was passed around a few more times and the last hit that I took sent me to another world. It is not something I can describe, it's not something I can really recall 100%, but it's not something I ever want to go through again. I woke up the next morning not knowing what happened. I came to the conclusion that I was tripping so hard I passed out and my friends left. I woke up dazed and confused almost like I had drank a 5th of whiskey the night before without the hangover. I had already had issues with anxiety and this onset of confusing sent me into a light and steady panic attack. It was there all day long every day. It wasn't a panic attack, but it was like I was preparing to give the biggest speech in front of the most important people in the entire world. And that feeling would last 24/7. Thankfully, it was towards the end of the semester so I finished my finals and went back home for the summer. My mom gave me some medicine to chill me out and it helped tremendously and thought it was all over. 

I figured it was just in my head since the morning I woke up from the bad trip I had done research about the stuff and did not find anything good to say the least. It wasn't until a week later when I was out with my girlfriend and some friends eating dinner and I started feeling really really weird again. It felt like I wasn't in my body and I was just watching everybody from afar. Anxiety quickly overcame my entire being. I thought this feeling was over and I thought I could get back on with my life. Well Chris you were wrong. At that point, I knew I was in trouble and I knew I had some serious obstacles to overcome. I went home that night (after playing it cool in front of everybody at dinner) and tried to relax. I took some more muscle relaxers my mom had to see if that would at least put me to sleep. I had sudden bouts of anxiety attacks that would be so bad it felt like I was being stabbed through the stomach. There were points that I was curled up next to my mom in agony praying it would go away. I decided it was time to seek professional help. I started seeing a therapist and told her everything (or tried to) that was going on. I went a couple times hoping my mind would trick itself into thinking that it was working. To be honest, whoever gave this lady a license to help people made a mistake. You could tell she didn't care what you were saying and that she was just trying to make a paycheck. I won't mention names because I don't want to slander anyone, but if you ever feel this then just do yourself a favor and find someone else. There are actually people who care out there (like me). 

I decided to go see an MD and see what he had to say. You could tell he had no idea what I was talking about. To catch y'all up, at this point I'm still having anxiety every day, and I have also started questioning existence. Not only was I questioning why I was here, I couldn't wrap my head around how big the universe and how it was just created. Yes, those of you reading this that are spiritual or religious I know that's why it's called faith. But if you knew who I was my mind didn't think that way. Especially with everything else that was going on in my life. I thought of everything very logically and analyzed everything. I became OCD about why we, as humans, were even here. A little side note, while I was dealing with all of my personal issues, my mother was battling pill addiction. Anyways, back at the doctor, he puts me on anti depressants. Zoloft to be exact 50 mg a day. 5 years ago and I still remember my exact dose. Well to say the least I never saw the difference. 2 weeks nothing. 4 weeks nothing. 6 weeks nothing. After 6 weeks, he bumps my dose to 100 mg because I'm just getting worse. At this point, I'm going back to college to try to go back to class and pretend like my life is fine. Well, I went from being an A student to being a D student. I moved back home and attended a college close by the next semester. I had been on Zoloft for 12 months now and tried a couple others (wellbutrin, lexapro) and I felt like a zombie. 

I didn't have emotions, all I knew was something was wrong with me. I wasn't happy, I didn't care about anything, I lost all feeling and touch with the world. I decided to take myself off. I went to my dads for a few weeks and it was the perfect time to ween myself off a little bit at a time because I was out in the country doing some work outside and just hanging out stress free. Once I got back, I was feeling good I was happy I wasn't taking the meds anymore and I was feeling optimistic.  I still wasn't feeling completely normal but I was able to function 100% better than before and I wasn't having anxiety all the time. My girlfriend of 3 1/2 years even told me I seemed a lot better. She tried to be as supportive as she could, but she could only understand so much. We broke up about a month later. 

I started getting back into smoking real weed and it was OK. It didn't make me trip out or have anxiety or anything like that. 3 weeks later I ended up getting arrested because my dumbass friend through his weed in front of a cop and my life hit another curveball. My mom bailed me out, I dealt with it, and put it past me. A month after that my mom was admitted into the hospital after my stepdad found her unconscious not breathing with no pulse. Luckily him being a paramedic and a firefighter he had a defibrillator and was able to get a pulse. By that time the ambulance arrived and brought her to the hospital. 72 hours I held her hand while she passed away. Within two months after taking myself off anti depressant meds, I was arrested, broke up with my girlfriend of almost 4 years, and my mom passed away. I went back to college 10 days later and started another semester. My family kept telling me I could take some time off, but I had planned on moving back before and I knew that's what my mom would have wanted. 

Fast forward 5 years later from the beginning of this story. I'm 24 years old, and I will be turning 25 in November. I graduated college with a degree in finance and now work for a multi billion dollar company making a pretty good living as an analyst. The reason I tell this story is because I want to start something that helps those with mental illnesses. Anything from a simple break up blues to depression. I my original question was if anybody followed this thread still. If there is anybody out there that is still struggling with this or anything else or someone that may be close to a situation I'm always here to listen and tell you what I have done that helped me.


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## making_art (Apr 18, 2016)

Welcome CW! :goodpost:

Thank you so much for sharing your experience...It is heart warming to hear of your recovery and your strength and determination to deal with such difficult times.

Thank you also for being an advocate with your willingness to share and help others and hopefully to prevent such tragedies from occurring. 

My heart and thoughts go with you.....


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