# Taking a look at Codependency



## white page

Codependency
Wellness Directory of Minnesota

Codependency is a terrible term. It has endless connotations that have nothing to do with the disorder. Codependency itself is such a broad dysfunction that it is extremely hard to define in concise terms. However, one therapist and friend summed up the condition thus: "I only wanted to be loved." Another simple definition that works is, "Codependency is a dysfunctional relationship with the self."

Codependency refers to habitual behaviors that are ultimately self-destructive. Almost everyone (at times) has symptoms of codependency. No one escapes.

Codependent behaviors can be stopped. Therapists, books, support groups, and constant and careful self-monitoring will help. In the end, healing from codependency is ultimately up to the individual.
The following are a list of symptoms. Few have them all, some have a few, and many symptoms are contradictory, but that is the irony of Codependency. For more symptoms you can click here and visit another site on the web.

*Symptoms*
*Care taking*: the codependent individual feels responsible for other people. S/He feels anxious and even guilty when another has a problem. S/He feels compelled to help that person solve their problem. S/He anticipates the other's needs and feels angry when his help is not effective or rebuffed. At the same time, the codependent feels slighted that others won't help her/him out when s/he needs help. However, this same individual who is constantly doing way too much for others, and not getting "any" help from anyone, will usually answer when asked what is wrong or what do you need, responds, "Oh, nothing." The codependent minimizes his/her own worth. The codependent is his/her own worst enemy.

The codependent is over committed, harried, pressured, feels safe when giving, but insecure when someone gives to him/her, goes out of her/his way to help others, and believes deep inside that other people are responsible for the way they are and will blame others for the "spot" they are in. Others make them feel the way they feel, they are victimized, angry, unappreciated, and used. Others are driving them crazy.

*Low Self Worth*: codependents tend to come from troubled, dysfunctional families, and will deny this to the very end. They blame themselves for their family's shortcomings. They blame themselves for everything. They pick on themselves constantly: not intelligent enough, not pretty enough, not smart enough, not athletic enough, not good enough. But if another criticizes them, boy do they get defensive and angry, not to mention self-righteous. Don't try to give a codependent a compliment; they reject all compliments and praise, even though they get depressed from lack of compliments and praise. They feel "different" from the rest of the world. They reject themselves, but fear rejection. Everything is taken personally, they love being the victim (though will deny it with their last breath). They have been victims of sexual, physical, or emotional abuse, abandonment, neglect, and/or alcoholism. They feel like victims, carry lots of guilt and shame, and think their lives are not worth living. They should have done this, should have done that. They "should" themselves to death. Codependents say, "Why me?" on the outside, and know "why me" on the inside. While trying to prove to others that they are good enough, to themselves they are worthless and empty.

*Repression:* most codependents repress their own needs, their own desires. They are afraid to let themselves be who they are and often appear rigid and controlled. They repress all thoughts of self worth out of their awareness and they are full of guilt. Codependents cannot have fun.

*Obsessive Compulsive Disorder*: codependents worry. They worry about the slightest and silliest things: they worry that people are talking about them; they worry that people are not talking about them; they lose sleep over little things; they check up on others; they try to catch people in the act; they never find any answers, they focus on other's problems; they spend money compulsively; eat or drink compulsively; and wonder why they have no energy and why they never get anything done.

*Controlling Behaviors*: codependents try to control events and people through helplessness, guilt, coercion, threats, advice-giving, manipulation, or domination. They are afraid to let people be who they are or let events happen naturally. They've lived in so many situations in which they had no control (abuse, alcoholism, etc) that they now try to control everything and get frustrated and angry when they cannot. They end up feeling controlled by events. They feel controlled by others. They resist change as if change were a contagion.

*Denial:* codependents ignore problems or pretend they do not exist. They pretend things are not as bad as they are; they tell themselves it will get better; they stay busy to avoid thinking about things; they get confused, sick, depressed and visit doctors for a prescription. Many are workaholics. They lie to themselves and others. They believe their lies. And most of all, codependents will leave a healthy situation (by lying to themselves that it was an unhealthy situation) and get back into an unhealthy situation; though for the most part, most codependents either never leave an unhealthy situation/relationship, or they go from one unhealthy situation/relationship to another.

*Dependency*: codependents do not feel happy or content with themselves. They look to others to supply them their happiness or their needs. They are threatened by the loss of anything or any person that provides them with their happiness. They do NOT love themselves. They did not feel loved by their parents. They equate love with pain and believe others are never, ever there for them. They need people more than they want them; their lives revolve around someone else's life; they tolerate abuse; feel trapped; leave one bad relationship and jump into another bad relationship. They wonder if they will ever find true love. And if they do find true love, they will leave that and find a loveless relationship because deep inside (often beneath consciousness) they feel unworthy of love.

*Poor Communication Skills*: codependents blame, threaten, coerce, beg, bribe, and advise others. They don't mean what they say and don't say what they mean. They don't take themselves seriously and expect others to do the same. They avoid getting to the point, asking indirectly for attention by sighing, crying, or moping around. They say everything is their fault. They say nothing is their fault. They can't get to the point, and if pressed, they're not sure what the point really is. They believe their opinions do not matter and have difficulties asserting their rights or expressing honest emotions, openly and appropriately. They apologize for bothering people.

*Poor Boundaries*: codependents say they won't tolerate something from anyone, and then engage themselves in exactly that. Then they gradually increase their tolerance levels till they can tolerate most anything others do to them. They allow others to hurt them, over and over and over again. They stay in bad relationships for all the wrong reasons: to fix the other; for the kids (like kids need to grow up in a loveless relationship); because things will get better; and worst of all: because they feel they deserve to live in hell. They complain and blame but far too many never get away from their abuser. Then they finally get angry and become totally intolerant and the cycle begins all over again. (For a list of unhealthy boundaries from Recovery.org, click here.)

*Lack of Trust*: codependents do not trust themselves, their feelings, their decisions, other people, or even God. And then, right out of the blue, they'll trust someone who is totally untrustworthy.

*Sexual Problems*: codependents go through cycles in the bedroom. They are caretakers there too. They have sex when they don't want to or withdraw sex to punish their partner. They try to have sex when they are hurt or angry, and refuse to enjoy it. They withdraw emotionally from their partner, feel revulsion toward their partner, and don't want to talk about it. They reduce sex to a technical act, wonder why they don't enjoy it; lose interest; make up reasons to abstain, wish their partner would die, go away, or guess what is wrong with them; they have strong sexual fantasies about others and consider having affairs.

*General:* codependents can be extremely responsible or irresponsible, they become martyrs, sacrificing their own happiness. They find it difficult to be happy, feel close to others, or have fun and be spontaneous. They are passive aggressive, feeling passive, hurt, helpless yet violent and angry. They laugh when they want to cry. They are ashamed of their families, of their relationships. They cover up, lie, and protect their family from their problems. They don't seek help because they don't feel the problem is all that bad. And then they wonder why the problems never go away.

*From Bad to Worse*
Progressively, if the codependent does not get help, the symptoms above just get worse. The codependent becomes lethargic and depressed and eventually withdraw and isolate themselves. Their daily routine falls by the wayside. They abuse or neglect the people who depend on them, mostly, their children. They feel utterly hopeless and initiate plans to escape. They contemplate suicide. They become violent, or seriously mentally or physically ill. They develop an eating (drinking or drug) disorder.

*Summary*
Not all codependents have all of the above symptoms. If you have just 20% of the above symptoms, you can consider yourself a codependent. If you have 5 to 10% of the above symptoms, you are normal. Normal people are, at times, codependent. Even normal people can use a bit of therapy, a bit of healing.

We are all, in many ways, self-destructive. None of us came from the Cleaver Family, Father does not know best, and our mothers were never as perfect as Donna Reed.

The worst thing about being codependent is that the codependent wastes her/his life. The next worst thing about being codependent is we pass it on to our children, and in them, our symptoms are hugely magnified.

*Origins*
The one question is how did we get this way?

Prolonged exposure to oppression is the key here. As Earnie Larson states in his books and lectures (I'm paraphrasing here): "What we live with we learn; what we learn we practice; what we practice becomes habit; our habits have consequences."

All of these behaviors are "learned." They can be unlearned.

Everything boils down to this: we have little self worth; our happiness is found outside of ourselves.

However, Earnie Larson has one more wonderful phrase that really sums up the codependent's situation or dilemma: "If nothing changes, nothing changes."

We, the codependent, must DO something to initiate healing. It won't come from outside. It just doesn't happen. If nothing changes, nothing changes.

*Healing Codependency*
Most people do not heal their codependency on their own. Let us face it, with all these symptoms flaring up, especially the denial, who could possibly see a way out?

Most codependents are slapped upside the head by a friend: "Hey, you need help!"

We do need help. We need the experience of others who have broken the cycles. We need a good therapist to help us see the light. We need friends who are open and honest with us. We need to sit and read a bit about ourselves, our problems, and the way out. Most of all, we need to know that we can be healed. This is NOT a permanent situation. But each person has to recognize the problem, admit to it, and then find the tools to help end it.

The first and most important thing for a codependent to learn is that Happiness is inside of us, not something outside. A good relationship is good, not because of the person we love, but because of the person we are. One person does not a relationship make.

Healing codependency is often referred to as "shifting our relationship with ourselves." Codependents must learn to accept their powerlessness over people and events. Recovery for a codependent is like recovery from alcohol or drug addiction and the same 12-step model is oftentimes employed: Let Go. Let God.

The codependent must sometimes "fire" the people in their lives. If they are not willing to work through their issues, then we have to "fire" them and move on ourselves. But we must keep in mind that this is about us, not them. Recovery means learning to take responsibility for our own actions, issues, feelings, behaviors, and our lives.

Recovery is not easy. Letting go of the need to control people, places, events is not easy. It is highly recommended to find a Codependent Anonymous (CoDA) group and attend regularly. Meetings, therapy, talking to fellow codependents, and reading and just plain being aware of our feelings and thoughts will ultimately set us free from our self-defeating patterns; from our fear and shame. Letting go of caretaking and all the energy expended in that fulltime effort frees up our energies to more constructive things. Below are links to more information, a place to locate a CoDA meeting, and further reading.

But finally know this: Your author has been through his own bouts with codependency. Hardly any of us are untouched by this. Healing is not only possible, it is wonderfully exhilarating. Once we step out of our destructive patterns, anything is possible. In a letter to a friend once, I wrote the following that I want to share with you.

_Old problems are much more comfortable than new solutions. But always keep in mind, that life begins on the edge of your comfort zone.

Trust and listen to your intuition. If you listen to your mind, you will hear only the same old crap it’s been spewing for years. Unless you heal your past, your life, and recover from the abuse (self-inflicted and other-inflicted) your mind will not be your friend. Listen to your heart. Go with the flow.​_


----------



## Joan

Thanks so much for this info. I have very recently realized that I fit every criteria of co-dependency, and it would seem I'm into the later stages. I am going to attend my first CodA group tonight - just happens to be 5 doors down 
Thanks again, I have a rough road ahead but I have resources to get on the path.


----------



## Darkside

My therapist told me this about codependency. He said a codependent is someone who has a craving need for someone to be dependent on them (that needs their caretaking) because that is how they get their self-esteem. They make terrible parents because their children have a hard time learning to take care of themselves as adults.


----------



## GDPR

> Everything boils down to this: we have little self worth; our happiness is found outside of ourselves.



I really need to work on this.My life tends to be lead by others,what they are/are not doing,how they are feeling,etc. If my husband,or one of my kids is hurting or struggling with something,I also am.I spend all my time trying to find solutions to their problems and I get so engulfed in it that I forget all self care,even to the point where I don't even eat.If one of them is not doing okay,then neither am I.Sometimes I don't know where they end and I begin,I become so entangled in what's going on with them.

Step one in codependents anonymous is "we admitted we are powerless over others-that our lives have become unmanageable".I have a hard time with that,with accepting that I truly am powerless.Deep down,I know it's true,but I don't know how to stop trying to fix other people,I don't know how to step back and stop trying to control them.I know it doesn't work,I know it's the wrong thing to do,but I find myself doing it,time and time again.

I realized just how codependent I am after my very first therapy session with my current T.After spending pretty much the entire session crying and telling him I thought I was having a breakdown,and explaining everything that was going on in my life,he asked me if I could change one thing about myself,what would it be.I didn't even realize until later that evening when I was thinking about everything we had talked about that I didn't mention one thing about myself,I had told him everything I wanted to change about everyone else.

I take back what I said,it's not that I don't know how to stop trying to fix other people,I am _afraid _to not try.I am afraid of what could happen if I don't.I am afraid that if something bad happens to them,it will be my fault because I didn't help them,because I didn't at least try.I also know that if someone needs me they will stay in my life.


----------



## PrincessX

Thanks for bringing this post up. It has some really good points. In fact, I see my spouse described in it and his dysfunctional family that he keeps claiming is "perfect". I can not communicate with his parents anymore, because they are rude, abusive people with strict expectations from others. They are also very snobish and demonstrating high self-esteem, at the same time, workaholics and insecure people. He was beaten and constantly threatened as a child from his father. His mother views "mild" physical abuse as the best way to discipline children.  I really feel sorry for him and for myself when I think of his parents. Codependency creates a very difficult dynamic for one's entire life. It will take years and years of therapy to break this cycle. While I can easily abstain from any relationships with his parents, I can not just cut-off the love of my life (him). Am I a co-dependent? In some ways. But I still love myself.

---------- Post Merged at 01:48 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 01:44 PM ----------

_"I realized just how codependent I am after my very first therapy session with my current T.After spending pretty much the entire session crying and telling him I thought I was having a breakdown,and explaining everything that was going on in my life,he asked me if I could change one thing about myself,what would it be.I didn't even realize until later that evening when I was thinking about everything we had talked about that I didn't mention one thing about myself,I had told him everything I wanted to change about everyone else".
_

I know exactly what you mean by that. I have talked about my hb over and over and over again without even saying a word about myself. I eventually corrected myself on my own, but did not quite realize what was going on.

---------- Post Merged at 03:50 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:38 PM ----------

I just wanted to post a link to another article on codependency, it is not a peer-reviewed or anything just an easy read:

http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-if-You-Are-Codependent


----------



## Peter

There is a Serenity Prayer that a lot of people use in such situations as codependency. It goes like this:

God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom the know the difference.​
What we cannot change is other people, places, things, and situations. We can only make suggestions.
What we can change, is our self. This generally points to altering our attitudes towards other people, places, things, and situations.

In short, to alter codependency is to stop _people pleasing, _and being _afraid_. 
We _people please_ because of fear. There are hundreds of fear stories, from avoiding abuse to failing to maintain/uphold a belief.
Part of recovering from codependency is to face our fears. Most of our fears are unfounded, or stem from misguided beliefs.

To change from codependency takes time and usually taken in steps. Similar to overcoming fears by desensitization. We first stop _people pleasing_ on the less risky bits. After we experienced less fear, we take steps closer towards other issues which once scared us. We learn to become more independent.

However, relationships still need to relate with each other. Each person needs to depend on the other, for help, now and again, as much as they need to do things for themselves. This exchange of codependency and independence is called inter-dependency.

My partner also knows what codependency is. Whenever she thinks that I am becoming too codependent, she would suggest that I be more independent, or be more responsible by saying: "What are you afraid of?" or other words to that effect. This reminds me that I am avoiding something, and I was hoping the other (she) would do for me what I feared to do for myself. In most cases, what I fear, is quite subtle. Naturally, this works both ways. These days we hardly ever need to remind each other, and our relationship has become* so close and yet so free* to be independent at will. I believe a healthy inter-dependency has the capacity to let go of our fears, of being alone, when the other wishes to be independent. This is regardless if the other wishes to be independent for the next few hours, or forever. After all, no one has the right to claim another human being for them self.


----------



## Darkside

Lost_In_Thought said:


> I really need to work on this.My life tends to be lead by others,what they are/are not doing,how they are feeling,etc. If my husband,or one of my kids is hurting or struggling with something,I also am.I spend all my time trying to find solutions to their problems and I get so engulfed in it that I forget all self care,even to the point where I don't even eat.If one of them is not doing okay,then neither am I.Sometimes I don't know where they end and I begin,I become so entangled in what's going on with them.
> 
> Step one in codependents anonymous is "we admitted we are powerless over others-that our lives have become unmanageable".I have a hard time with that,with accepting that I truly am powerless.Deep down,I know it's true,but I don't know how to stop trying to fix other people,I don't know how to step back and stop trying to control them.I know it doesn't work,I know it's the wrong thing to do,but I find myself doing it,time and time again.
> 
> I realized just how codependent I am after my very first therapy session with my current T.After spending pretty much the entire session crying and telling him I thought I was having a breakdown,and explaining everything that was going on in my life,he asked me if I could change one thing about myself,what would it be.I didn't even realize until later that evening when I was thinking about everything we had talked about that I didn't mention one thing about myself,I had told him everything I wanted to change about everyone else.
> 
> I take back what I said,it's not that I don't know how to stop trying to fix other people,I am _afraid _to not try.I am afraid of what could happen if I don't.I am afraid that if something bad happens to them,it will be my fault because I didn't help them,because I didn't at least try.I also know that if someone needs me they will stay in my life.



That is what abuse does to us. It is about satisfying the needs of others and we learn that our own needs are not important. We are surrounded by adults who are immature and selfish and we become parentified. The good news is that it is possible to learn how to focus on our own feelings and be guided by them. For me that has been the biggest step towards breaking the co-dependence cycle.

I'll give you an example. I play golf with 3 friends every Sunday rain or shine. Over the past couple of years I have noticed that I tend to go in hunt of a lost golf ball for the other guys in my group, but when it comes time to hit my own ball I don't know where it is.  It was startling when I realized this and what it meant. But I grew up having to take responsibility for everyone else's mistakes so I completely understand how I got this way.


----------



## GDPR

Something I was taught,and believed,as a child is that the things I do,or don't do, cause 'bad' things to happen to other people.That if I don't do what others want and expect of me,then bad things will happen to the ones I love and care about.

I know I have talked about this before somewhere here at Psychlinks. It's a huge issue for me,it's something I still struggle with.

I do so much better when I focus on myself,when I am working on my own issues and don't obsess about other people.But it seems like when I do that,and I start doing good,start feeling good,and things are going good,then something happens to someone I love.Like,one of them will get sick,or one of my kids will get arrested,and then I start thinking it's my fault.I start thinking of things I have done wrong,it could be anything,like talking about the past in therapy,getting upset with someone,not eating healthy,something I have been thinking about,it could be anything.And then I start freaking out,thinking OMG,IT IS MY FAULT,and then I start thinking I need to focus on everyone else,I need to do what others want and expect,I need to quit talking,quit going to therapy,etc.

I know it's irrational,and I have been working on this in therapy for 4 years.My T keeps trying to get me to see that I don't cause bad things to happen to other people,but when I start thinking that way I get so caught up in it,it's so real and believable that it's hard to think and believe any other way.I know it was just a way to control me as a child,and it worked.But it has really stuck with me,it's like ingrained in my brain or something.

My mother took my kids to church with her when they were fairly young.She told them if they weren't good god would make a tornado hit our house and kill my husband and I.She told them it would be their fault.I was SO mad that she did that to them,they never wanted to go anywhere with her,or to church after that.They were scared,they believed what she said. So when I start thinking that way,that I cause things to happen to other people,I think about that and tell myself it's just a form of control and it's not real or true.Sometimes it works,but a lot of times it doesn't.

I know I am codependent.But it's hard to overcome when I also still have that 'magical thinking' that's been ingrained.And it makes me mad that I am not able to let go of it when I know it's so irrational!


----------



## Peter

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]HelloLost_In_Thought.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Here is a different perspective from what has been mentioned.

Sometimeswe can get caught up with the irrational, not because it is illogicalbut because it[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif] [/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]feelsright[/FONT]*[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif].[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Thisis particularly true if the irrational serves us in some way. If theirrational will bring about what we want, then it will [/FONT]_[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]feelright.[/FONT]_

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Forexample:[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Adrunk may want a justification to get drunk without feeling guiltyfor doing so. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Thedrunk decides to believe that everybody gets drunk now and again, and therefore decides to go and get drunk.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Tothe drunk, this belief[/FONT] _[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]feelsright[/FONT]_ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]andlogical, but it is irrational.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Whyis it irrational? [/FONT]


 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Firstly,	not all people drink alcohol.[/FONT]

 [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Secondly,	not all people who drink alcohol gets drunk.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Thedrunk twisted the irrational to [/FONT]_[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]feel[/FONT]_ [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]rational;and as far as the drunk is concerned, that is all that matters. Ithas served its purpose - to get drunk without guilt.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif][/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]Sothe question is[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif], how does feeling guilty for other people's misfortune serve you?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Tahoma, Calibri, Geneva, sans-serif]

Be brave, and find your answer(s), for it could liberate you for ever. It's worth the search.[/FONT]


----------



## GDPR

Peter said:


> Sometimes we can get caught up with the irrational, not because it is illogical but because it *feels right*.
> This is particularly true if the irrational serves us in some way. If the irrational will bring about what we want, then it will _feel right._
> 
> So the question is, how does feeling guilty for other people's misfortune serve you?



I don't understand what you're trying to say.It doesn't feel 'right' to me,and it doesn't serve me in any way.It serves other people,not me.Please help me understand so that I can answer the question for myself.

I especially don't understand how it will bring about what I want...


----------



## Peter

Hello lost_In_Thought.

I can see my offered perspective is not identifiable to you. I often take a wrong turn when tracking for causes. Sorry if I misled you too.

However, there is a reason for everything we do. Some reasons follow rational thinking, and some are based on irrational thoughts (like imagined fear).
Generally, if we do not like where we are going, the usual cause of it, points to where we are coming from (our reason).

If I kept returning to my irrational beliefs, I know that it is serving me in some way. Even if the reasoning seems vacant.

However I am sure that whenever I returned to an irrational belief, it is out of some fear I wish to avoid. For me, I wish to avoid some form of self-responsibility.
For instance, I once was afraid of becoming my father. I did not want to become abusive. I was afraid to take on the responsibility that even my own father could not handle - to change.

If you can identify with what I just wrote, then what is it you wish to avoid?     

Hope this approach will help you Lost_In_Thought.


----------



## GDPR

> Hope this approach will help you Lost_In_Thought



Yes,I think it will.Thanks.

I have a lot of thinking to do now....


----------



## Darkside

LIT, I believe that the feelings/beliefs we had as children are carried into adulthood as learned behaviors. The maturing human brain (starting in infancy) is naturally drawn to understanding the world but that can become twisted into the belief that we have power and control over things (especially people) around us. That is what happens in abuse.  These beliefs cause us pain when they are, as Peter said, irrational. The process we all go through as adults is sorting out the irrational beliefs (becoming aware of them) and then trying to change them. When you grow up in a dysfunctional home that normal process is interrupted by the irrational beliefs of our family or caretakers. If they never sorted out their own irrational beliefs a child growing up in that home will have a great deal of trouble doing it themselves.

For me, some of my beliefs are so deeply imbedded, and processed on a subconscious level, that it takes some effort (and frequently help from a therapist) to get them out in the open and to realize how irrational they are and then change them. When this has happened to me (a lot in recent years) the effect of seeing my irrationality has actually caused me to change my beliefs. One of the most deeply embedded beliefs I have is that I somehow am at fault for, or have control over, what happens to other people and what they feel. Some of that is normal because we can hurt other people by our actions or by what we say. But when people make us responsible for what happens to them because they don't take responsibility for themselves (this is what happens in abuse) then the feeling we have is irrational and unhealthy. 

But here's the thing. I believe that everyone has a rational mind and that rational mind can re-interpret reality and we can overcome unhealthy beliefs, behaviors and ways of living and interacting with people that we brought into adulthood from childhood. The cerebral cortex can process information that can lead to changing those beliefs and decisions. I'm 60 years old and just now starting this process. It is NEVER too late. Never!!


----------



## GDPR

Peter said:


> If you can identify with what I just wrote, then what is it you wish to avoid?



I'm not sure.When I try to think about this,my head hurts and it's hard to think.But,it is causing me to feel very emotional,very sad and panicky.


----------



## MHealthJo

Thanks for this discussion. It's so easy to fall into codependent behaviours, I feel awareness of this topic is extremely useful for pretty much everyone. Thanks all for your contributions.

In regards to looking for how irrational beliefs serve you, which is hard to pin down sometimes, I want to point out something you said earlier LIT:

"If someone needs me, they will stay in my life."

I don't have as deep an understanding of codependency as many do, but in my readings some aspects of its 'appeal' have sometimes been described as: it may help us avoid the fear that if we were not needed / serving/ protecting, perhaps we would not be wanted or liked by anyone. 

Some have also said that there is an element of: as long as we are busy thinking and worrying about these things related to others, it serves the purpose of avoiding looking within, looking within at something we might be perceiving as scary or unpleasant? 

Or even helping on some level to avoid acts or depths of self-awareness, self-scrutiny, decisionmaking? Some have said that these things can be terrifying. Reacting, instead, to pre-existing thoughts or ideas, and making simpler decisions based on reactivity and pre-existing thought processes and fears - some say that for many used to doing so, it feels like a safer or more predictable or more manageable place to operate from.

No idea if any of this is relevant or helpful,  just some thoughts.

Dr David Burns' "downward arrow technique" is also said to be good for trying to figure out what's underneath something.


----------



## Darkside

Peter said:


> Hello lost_In_Thought.
> 
> I can see my offered perspective is not identifiable to you. I often take a wrong turn when tracking for causes. Sorry if I misled you too.
> 
> However, there is a reason for everything we do. Some reasons follow rational thinking, and some are based on irrational thoughts (like imagined fear).
> Generally, if we do not like where we are going, the usual cause of it, points to where we are coming from (our reason).
> 
> If I kept returning to my irrational beliefs, I know that it is serving me in some way. Even if the reasoning seems vacant.
> 
> However I am sure that whenever I returned to an irrational belief, it is out of some fear I wish to avoid. For me, I wish to avoid some form of self-responsibility.
> For instance, I once was afraid of becoming my father. I did not want to become abusive. I was afraid to take on the responsibility that even my own father could not handle - to change.
> 
> If you can identify with what I just wrote, then what is it you wish to avoid?
> 
> Hope this approach will help you Lost_In_Thought.



Very well said. There's a payoff for continuing behavior that doesn't work when we know it doesn't work.

I have a very strongly overadapted child which means I spend a lot of time and effort trying to please other people at the expense of my own needs. The trouble is that I know it but have trouble not engaging in that behavior. I learned it as a child (because, as I said above, I observed that my behavior had an affect on the people around me) but to keep doing it as an adult means there is a payoff. The payoff for me is the irrational belief that it gives me power and no one like to be powerless.

But being in touch with my own feelings, observing my actions, my thoughts, my words gives me power too and it has nothing to do with control over anyone else - just me. I can tell you that was actually a real shock to me when I realized it. There is a lot of joy relating to other people from the genuineness of knowing what I feel - of being responsible for what I feel - instead of continually trying to figure out if the other person was happy.

But again, I think that is part of the cycle of abuse. As a child I decided that I had to take care of other people - specifically my mother and my sister. I believed I was powerful because I could make them happy. I won't speak for Peter, but I think that's the irrational belief that he is talking about.


----------



## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Maybe bring this up with your therapist, then LIT.  

Perhaps your therapist might have a good idea, even if you can't think of any.  My therapist often/would often listen to me trying to figure something out, and then at length he would ask me something, "Do you think it's this? (described what he heard me saying and offered a suggestion)"   Sometimes it wasn't quite right, so he'd ask me a few other probing questions.   Other times it was spot on the first time.  And it would blow my mind.

It sounds like you are stressing about why you used to accept that irrational thoughts helped you in some manner.  If it's anything like my memories, it could be: 

"This is what my parents taught me, so it must be true.  If I don't accept this irrational idea that unforeseen negative events are somehow caused by me, then that means I don't love my parents, because I don't accept them.  I need to accept this false belief or it will prove that my parents don't love me.  And having to accept that my parents didn't love me hurts me so deeply.  How could a parent infuse this kind of belief in their child?  It must have been to control me, and to frighten me terribly, so that I would be too afraid to say anything, protest, stand up for myself, speak out to others for help, etc.  This is also proof that my parents did not love me, or that their love was twisted.  This must mean that the problem lies with them.  They wanted to emotionally manipulate me.  This truth hurts me so bad.  I believed that they must have loved me so strongly.  The way these false beliefs serve me is to protect me from the truth that my parents were not truly loving parents, and this hurts me so bad, because I don't understand how they could do that, as I would never intentionally do this to my own children.  It hurts to find out that all this time, all during my childhood, I was so helpless, because I was a child and they were adults who were supposed to be looking after me, but instead used me, frightened me, and thought they owned me. It caused me to have to look for help as an adult and it has caused me  to have much work to bring myself forward and out of this deep mire I've  been surviving in.  I've just been surviving, and in survival mode for  so long, I don't know how to live and I'm scared to live it.  I am so used to being in this mode of survival, in this darkness, I am afraid of changing.  After all I have been through, I don't think I can bear it."

And now you can change, because you are an adult, and you now are out of that situation you were in, both physically and emotionally.  So you are learning to live, you are learning more about yourself, and other people, and the difference between twisted love and actual love.  You are having your eyes opened, your soul lightened, your mind soothed, because now you CAN ask for help.   You are learning the truth.  It hurts sometimes, but at least you are learning your rights as a human being, you are learning you have the right to your anger and sadness.  You are allowed to feel.  You are allowed to express.  This is all new for you, and new is scary, but it's also an adventure.  You are your own Dana Scully, your own Zoe Washburn.  You are Lucy Pevensie, going through the Wardrobe.  You may feel a little like Sally Owens or Olivia Dunham sometimes... 


If you don't mind my opinion, I would say you've been coming forward out of the darkness in leaps and bounds.

You sometimes find it hard to bear, but you overcome.  You are a brave and resilient person. 

But the Truth is Out There...  And also Inside of You!  ♥  You have the keys!


----------



## Darkside

MHealthJo said:


> Thanks for this discussion. It's so easy to fall into codependent behaviours, I feel awareness of this topic is extremely useful for pretty much everyone. Thanks all for your contributions.
> 
> In regards to looking for how irrational beliefs serve you, which is hard to pin down sometimes, I want to point out something you said earlier LIT:
> 
> "If someone needs me, they will stay in my life."
> 
> Some have also said that there is an element of: as long as we are busy thinking and worrying about these things related to others, it serves the purpose of avoiding looking within, looking within at something we might be perceiving as scary or unpleasant?



Interesting. I can remember being told by my mother over and over again that it was selfish to think about my own needs and that I should always think about other people (meaning her) first. My child's brain interpreted this to mean, anticipate other peoples needs, to always be tuned into other people state of mind, (read their body language and expressions) to take responsibility for other people and to ignore what my own heart and head was telling me.


----------



## H011yHawkJ311yBean

I think I can relate to that, Darkside.

I became very heavy on the Caregiver side.  But now I realize I have to take care of me and mine first.  

It's still sometimes tough.  I can catch myself trying to maintain myself in that role, but at least now I am catching myself. lol 

I certainly do NOT want to come across as the martyr.  That was my mom's thing.  And I don't want to gather resentment by denying that I need help once in a while.  I was very very very skilled at anticipating people's wants and needs, and really skilled at reading body language.

I think that it's a good sign that my skills have sort of toned down a lot to the point sometimes where I don't notice nearly as much.  At first I kind of missed this "power" but my therapist reminded me it was not a skill I needed any longer.   I'm no longer on the front lines, so to speak.  That was a survival skill I needed, but not anymore.


----------



## Darkside

jollygreenjellybean said:


> I think I can relate to that, Darkside.
> 
> I became very heavy on the Caregiver side.  But now I realize I have to take care of me and mine first.
> 
> It's still sometimes tough.  I can catch myself trying to maintain myself in that role, but at least now I am catching myself. lol
> 
> I certainly do NOT want to come across as the martyr.  That was my mom's thing.  And I don't want to gather resentment by denying that I need help once in a while.  I was very very very skilled at anticipating people's wants and needs, and really skilled at reading body language.
> 
> I think that it's a good sign that my skills have sort of toned down a lot to the point sometimes where I don't notice nearly as much.  At first I kind of missed this "power" but my therapist reminded me it was not a skill I needed any longer.   I'm no longer on the front lines, so to speak.  That was a survival skill I needed, but not anymore.



I can see that you might miss that power; but when I can focus on my own state of mind, how I feel, what I think, my own opinions and beliefs and let other people take care of themselves I sense a different kind of power ... the burden is much lighter and it is like feeling free to explore things for the first time. For me it is always a struggle but at least I know what it feels like to NOT be codependent - even if it is not permanent. Under stress I sometimes regress - which is perfectly normal. I think, over time, I may become more comfortable with my own feelings and with not feeling the need to control ("rescue") other people and give up codependence. At least that is what I am hoping.

There will always be people whose psychopathy will trigger my codependence, but if I am going to take responsibility for my own life I've got to learn how to protect myself. I know that sometimes means walking away.


----------



## PrincessX

Your post kind of gives me a different perspective on my husband's desire for control.
 By the way, I finally gathered the courage to confront my husband's critisizing behaviour. I stated exactly what Peter wrote here, that noone has the right to claim another human being for themselves. Then I pointed out the abusive traits of his criticism and I explained to him that he can not treat even a dog this way, nevermind his wife. I told him that this behaviour was not appropriate for his age, status and education and it is something that he has to stop, because it embarasses HIM. For the first time I noticed that I almost brought him to tears and he could not argue. This happened a few weeks ago. Since then, I see a positive change in our relationship. He had significantly (by about 95%) reduced his misbehaviour, which was to constantly criticize me and particularly parts of my body and my body as a whole. 
I also thought about everything and realized that I am the only person who has to take care of myself, mentally and physically. Noone can run for you and noone can meditate for you or reduce your fears. I feel more self-responsible and most of the time full of energy for knowing that my life is in my own hands. I also try to remember that despite my best efforts, some things are out of my power to change. I am trying to keep up the positive attitude and work on the things that I can change to live healthier. I am proud of myself that I am able to find some strenght to overcome adversities. We are all capable of being strong, I know that, I see it every day in other people.


----------



## HotthenCold

I'm seeing lots of me in this article. Thanks for posting, it's always nice to get a little bit more clarity about what is going on. 'The part about not being able to have fun hit me hard. That's me all over.


----------

