# Lovemaps



## rdonovan1 (Jun 22, 2009)

I was just wondering if anyone might happen to know anything about lovemaps and as to how they really work. 

All that I know is that the term was coined by Dr. John Money of John's Hopkins University.

I've tried to understand the concept better, but so far I have not had much in the line of success with it at all as it is very, very confusing at least to me. 

So far the only one that has even remotely been able to explain it at all is Leil Lowndes in her book 'How to make anyone fall in love with you'. 

I have purchased two books relating to the topic that John Money wrote, but both are very poorly written and are next to impossible to understand by the layperson because of how the books are written by him.


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## white page (Jun 22, 2009)

*Re: lovemaps*

Hi rdonovan1

I found this link for you, from the article it seems that John Money has been somewhat discredited for falsifying his findings. 
John Money - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## rdonovan1 (Jun 22, 2009)

If his findings are false then what do we have to explain as to why we are attracted to certain people and not others.

I have been trying to understand all this for a long time, but so far I have not really had much luck with that. 

The closest that I can think of that even remotely explains as to why I was attracted to a girl that I knew in 1987 is because of a girl that I knew when I was in third grade.

Ever since I was introduced to the whole concept of lovemaps and the pick up arts as well as NLP I have been trying to pay more attention to what I did and as to what I said as I know that there was once instance that I had in 2004 in which I went to the bank after eating at McDonald's to take care of some business. 

While I was there I still had that feeling as if I had not eaten enough at McDonald's and during the course of the transaction with the female teller I inadvertantly mentioned that and for some reason she turned around and leaned across the counter as if that was the most interesting thing that she has ever heard in her life.

To this day I still do not know as to what I did or said that attracted her and that caused her to act that way and since then I have been trying to understand not only that interaction but every other interaction and relationship that I have ever had with women and from what I have found there does seem to be something to the whole concept of lovemaps. 

Unfortunately however I still do not understand it all and I am trying to understand it better as I am hoping to be able to avoid all of the mistakes that I have made with women so that I am not making them again in the future. 

I can't say that I have all of the answers to it, but I am learning. Unfortunately at the moment it seems like it is a very slow process because of my finances and my current employment situation. 

I have however discovered what I believe to be patterns that relate back to me and this girl from 1987. During the relationship I thought that everything was cool and that there were no problems with the relationship except for the fact that she constantly asked me to change. I unfortunately did not know how to change or even as to what she was talking about at all.

I do however know that she did love me because she told me so on multiple occasions in French.

During most of that summer that I knew her I thought things were cool and that there were no problems at all and towards the end of July I went on a trip to the Boundary Waters with a church group for about a week. When I got back I called her up expecting to see her again, but was informed by her that she was breaking off the relationship with me.

As devastated as I was by it all I eventually got over it and forgot about it until I started to drive truck. When I started to drive truck over the road and because of what I had been studying relating to the pick up arts and the study of seduction and attraction I started to think of something that my mother once mentioned to me about an experience that her and my stepfather had with this girl in which she asked about me long after the relationship was over. 

The incident happened in the early 90's but I did not find out about it until the late 90's when my mother told me about it.

That got me thinking about things that happened and as to what might have prompted her to ask about me. She always claimed that she was a lady, yet the Emily Post book of Etiquete says that she should have told me in person that she was ending the relationship with me and that is something that she did not do. As a result that has lead me to believe that her reason for asking about me was not due to society, but due to how she really felt about me.

Shortly after she ended the relationship she followed me one day as I was heading to firearm safety class and that is something that does not make any sense because if she really hated me then common sense tends to say that you would follow someone unless there was either genuine romantic feelings still left over or if you are a stalker with the intent of causing harm.

After that time there have been other instances that have occured that have really made me stop and wonder about it all as to whether any of her decisions and my decisions were in fact psychically or subconsciously linked to one another.

One thing that happened after the relationship is that I told her that I wanted to drive truck and that I wanted to live in Colorado. It took me a long time to get into driving truck and that was only because of a trip that I took because my father had given me a car.

I know that it might sound crazy, but I personally think that there is more to this whole subconscious thing than most people tend to think and I personally think that along with hidden emotions is why both me and her made many of the decisions that we each made.

One thing that is very strange that I found out later is that she apparently married a guy from Colorado and they and me and my ex wife both got married in Minnesota in the Minneapolis/St. Paul area in August of 1998. She got married to her husband exactly one week to the day prior to me getting married to my ex wife and it is that along with everything else that happened both before that date and since that date that has tended to make me think that perhaps there is some kind of pattern going on between me and her.

I would like to prove it, but at this point in time I do not know of any way in which to prove it at all and as a result I have just consigned myself to learning as much as I could from it and every other interaction that I have had with women both before her and after her and that is what tends to make me think that perhaps just maybe there might actually be something to this whole lovemap thing after all as I know for sure that I am attracted to some types of women, yet not others and outside of the concept of lovemaps I really don't have any explanation as to why or what it is and as to date this is the best that I have been able to come up with so far.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jun 22, 2009)

Whether or not his theory about lovemaps is false is irrelevant. It's a theory - no more and no less. The mysteries regarding why we are attracted to certain people and not nothers are deeply buried in early developmental experiences and later early romantic and sexual experiences, and trying to tease out all the factors that determine that in an individual is almost as complex as trying to figure out what each neuron does in the brain.

In fact, though, John Money was discredited for some of his claims about gender reassignment, which resulted in considerable and long-term trauma to one of his patients (the patient eventually committed suicide in his late 30s). That of course doesn't mean that *all* of Money's theories or *all* of his research is rubbish, but it does lead one to question what can be blieved and what can't. If he could lie about his claims regarding that patient (and do that amount of damage to the patient in the process), what would stop him from lying about anything or everything else in the pursuit of his personal fame and fortune?


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## Jazzey (Jun 23, 2009)

...And sometimes life just takes us down certain paths.  Spending too much time analyzing why or how we ended on a particular path means less time spent on just enjoying life.


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## rdonovan1 (Jun 29, 2009)

I'm just trying to understand it all because due to my studies of things like psychology, NLP, Hypnosis, seduction, attraction and my entire participation with the seduction community I have become very interested in trying to understand as to what I have done right and wrong in all of my relationships and in all of my interactions with women so that I can try to figure out as to what I am doing right and as to what I am doing wrong with it all.

I know that this may sound a little bit crazy, but due to my studies of things like NLP I have learned to pay very close attention to patterns and to the signals that women tend to give off and as a result that has tended to lead me to conclude that perhaps there is somekind of either psychic, psychological link between me and the girl that I knew in 1987 or some kind of spiritual/religious connection and as of this moment I do not know as to which of the two that it might be.

I am trying to ask some of the same questions on another forum relating to a guy that I know about who is familiar with the seduction community and who is a psychiatrist and who I am relatively familiar with because he has appeared on David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating Series, but he is not the only one that David D. has introduced me to as there are others and because of what they have taught me and because of what I have read as well as observed myself personally out in the field I know that there is a lot of truth to what they all say. 

The only problem is that I don't fully understand it all and that is why I am asking questions, continuing to study everything and continuing to look back at my past so that I can better understand it all as I know that it is an important part of life and it is something that I really want to get a better handle on.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jun 29, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> I'm just trying to understand it all because due to my studies of things like psychology, NLP, Hypnosis, seduction, attraction and my entire participation with the seduction community I have become very interested in trying to understand



 What is "the seduction community"?



rdonovan1 said:


> that has tended to lead me to conclude that perhaps there is somekind of either psychic, psychological link between me and the girl that I knew in 1987



Do you not think that obsessing about a girl you knew 22 years ago is a little unusual, to say the least? Why does whatever happened in 1987 occupy so much of your time in 2009?



rdonovan1 said:


> I am trying to ask some of the same questions on another forum relating to a guy that I know about who is familiar with the seduction community and who is a psychiatrist and who I am relatively familiar with because he has appeared on David DeAngelo's Double Your Dating Series, but he is not the only one that David D. has introduced me to as there are others and because of what they have taught me and because of what I have read as well as observed myself personally out in the field I know that there is a lot of truth to what they all say.
> 
> The only problem is that I don't fully understand it all and that is why I am asking questions, continuing to study everything and continuing to look back at my past so that I can better understand it all as I know that it is an important part of life and it is something that I really want to get a better handle on.



I don't understand it either (and to be honest I don't have any motivation to learn more about it). Perhaps you'd get better information from the psychiatrist you mention.


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## rdonovan1 (Jun 29, 2009)

You've probably got a good idea there as he will probably understand some of the concepts that I am refering to better than most people because much of what he tends to allude to sounds very, very familiar to things like NLP and possibly even Transactional Analysis as well.

Just to answer your question. The seduction community is group of guys that have gotten together and have learned as to what really attracts women and as to how both men and women tend to think and act differently.

Much of it is based on both the dating scene and evolutionary psychology, but it also tends to have a lot to do with the works of people like Dr. Milton Erickson, Dr. Eric Berne, Dr. Virginia Satir, Dr. Fritz Perls, Dr. Richard Bandler and others like them. 

The whole intent behind the seduction community is to create better relationsips between men and women.


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## white page (Jun 29, 2009)

> Just to answer your question. The seduction community is group of guys that have gotten together and have learned as to what really attracts women and as to how both men and women tend to think and act differently.



As a woman I find this idea horrendous, I would run a mile if I ever met a guy who belonged to such a group.


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## rdonovan1 (Jun 29, 2009)

white page said:


> As a woman I find this idea horrendous, I would run a mile if I ever met a guy who belonged to such a group.



Why would you find this idea horrendous? Please explain because at the moment I am not understanding as why you find the idea of creating better relationships between men and women would upset you so much.


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## white page (Jun 29, 2009)

I think it is the idea that a guy is using a formula or theory in his approach to a relationship.
It sounds manipulative. 
I would feel more sympathy if it was a mixed group.


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## rdonovan1 (Jun 29, 2009)

white page said:


> I think it is the idea that a guy is using a formula or theory in his approach to a relationship.
> It sounds manipulative.
> I would feel more sympathy if it was a mixed group.



It is a formula, but it is not manipulative at all. It is all about men learning more about how women think, feel, believe, and act and then being able to address her needs on a more emotional rather than logical level.

All of it is based upon psychology and in understanding how people tend to think and act.

I don't know about you, but I certainly don't know of too many women that are going to just walk up to a man and ask him if he wants to have sex with her. The only women that I know of that tend to do that are prostitutes and to me that is pretty degrading to most women as I know that most women do not want to be thought of as a sex object at all nor does she want to be ogled by men either.

Most women tend to want a guy that not only understands her, but also respects her and is romantic.

If you're looking for a man that won't respect you, is not very romantic, and does not understand you at all then perhaps you are looking in all of the wrong places because from what I have learned about women most women tend to call guys like that soul mates and to most women that is pretty rare. 

Throwing a man like that is kind of like giving a woman a diamond and then having her sit around and say that she hates diamonds and that she hates romance.


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## white page (Jun 29, 2009)

I really don't think that we are understanding each other, where is the magic and mystery in all this?  The excitement of the unknown and the adventure of discovery, not to speak of sponteniety.  That is what I call romantic, I never mentioned sex, that was just simply not in my thoughts. 
If I want to be understood on a psychological level,  I will go to my psychologist, I would not want my partner to be analysing and anticipating everything I say or do. 

Respecting a partner is respecting the fact that there are places in his or her mind which are out of reach and will always be out of reach. The secret garden of each persons mind, wanting to enter is being intrusive.


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## Jackie (Jun 30, 2009)

Well said White Page, its all about romance, mystery and magic, not some formula where 2+2=4. I think I would run a mile to if my partner started talking about any of this. I would find it quite worrying if my partner had a formula for running our relationship, its not what its all about!


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## Jazzey (Jun 30, 2009)

I agree. 



> I don't know about you, but I certainly don't know of too many women that are going to just walk up to a man and ask him if he wants to have sex with her.



Actually, I do know women who do this.  And I know men who do this too.  And neither of these groups are prostitutes, nor do they equate sex with being objects.  Rather, they have very liberal views on sexual relations.  I don't necessarily agree with them, but I do however respect them for allowing themselves to not hide who they really are as human beings.

Which brings me back to this thread.  Men, and only men, sitting around discussing what and what doesn't attract women is to me comical.  And while you tout that this is all based on psychology, psychology in a vacuum is worthless. What about the person who's psychology matters?  That's why psychologists exist, and even they can't do their jobs without having a particular person sitting there talking to them.  Without a patient in front of them, the knowledge is purely academic. 

Your group is forgetting one important element - we're human beings, and we're all different.  I think that's why this notion is comical to me, if not offensive.  By lumping all women into a category, you're in effect completely ignoring that what one likes may not be what another likes.  

I may not want a man who disrespects me, but I especially don't want a man who assumes that because I'm a woman, I won't recognize his overly thought out, manipulative, pseudo-psychology based strategies to "attract me".


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## white page (Jul 1, 2009)

Hi rdonovan1,

I have been thinking about your thread, In a sense I appreciate the fact that you wish to be more sensitive towards the opposite sex, maybe a different approach could be more enriching.
It is a pity to look at the two genders as two distinct bodies of beings, this we are not, each gender is a wondrous mixture of both, with no very distinct boundaries, would it not be better to look at and discover the feminity within yourself, this would make you  more sensitive in an intuitive way towards the ladies you meet, rather than reducing your appreciation of them to a formula.

take care wp


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## Always Changing (Jul 1, 2009)

I know I am a bit late coming in on this  but for what it is worth if anything, 2 cents maybe  

I wonder what happened to the concept of just being yourself and learning from life experiences?.  I believe it is ones own experiences with a partner(s)that allows us to learn about ourselves and how we behave towards eachother, not some formula that that was dreamt up.  If a person is always going into a relationship trying to figure out the why's and why not's, then that person is going to miss out on the real experience of getting to know the real person they are supposed to be seeing. Personally I think the whole idea of a formula in relation to people dating is Pie in the sky and doomed to failure on the part of the person utilising it.

as has been said already,  we are unique individuals with unique personality traits, I suggest throw the books away and just be who YOU ARE instead of analysing everything everytime you meet someone.

like I said my two cents worth.


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## white page (Jul 1, 2009)

:goodposting:  I agree


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 2, 2009)

I know that it is probably crazy, but my idea was based upon the notion of having courtesy and respect for one another and for the relationship to be 50/50.

In my mind I really didn't care if a woman choose to stay home or work. What mattered to me was that she was happy and that the relationship was healthy.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of people out there (especially guys) that tend to think that it is all right to abuse a woman in any way and that women should be at home barefoot and prenant in the kitchen because as far as these people are concerned a woman is nothing more than an sex object and that is it.

What a woman thinks, feels, or believes is completely irrelevant to these guys. All that they care about is their own happiness and that is it. 

This whole thing was about men transforming themselves into something better by actually taking the time to understand women and to develop more of a sense of their own lives. 

Perhaps that is wrong and perhaps we need to stick with the traditional sense of dating which basically teaches men that if a woman is not interested in you or doesn't put out after you buy her dinner and a movie, then it is all right for you to stalk her until she is scared out of her wits.

The game does not believe that a guy should stalk any woman at all for any reason. Guys that are in the game tend to believe that if a woman is not interested in them then they are either doing something wrong or that she just does not have any class or taste and in the minds of these guys they feel that it really is not worth it to really dwell upon one woman exclusively because there are more fish in the sea. 

They also tend to believe however that once you are in a committed relationship with a woman, then you should be doing what you can to make the relationship interesting and exciting to both of you so that neither of you decides that it is better to get your kicks outside the relationship.

I don't know if this can or will ever be undertood, but I once heard of a story in which a married couple would routinely do things like go to a bar or some other place like that. Both would pretend not to know each other and it was up to the guy to pick up the girl, but it was also her duty to make sure that it was not too easy as part of the fun behind it is in the challenge of seeing who can outwit the other.

That is more than just fun. That is also a very basic survival mechanism that is based upon millions of years of evolution. 

From a social and scientific standpoint it is not advantageous for a woman to sleep with every guy that she meets because there exists the very real possibility that she could get pregnant and that is not to mention as to what society will say about her either.

Guys on the other hand don't have that social stigma placed upon them either evolutionarily to through society and in fact it is scientifically beneficial for a guy to mate with more than one woman because that increases his chances of producing offspring. 

Our society also tends to turn the whole thing into something of a spectator sport. If a guy sleeps with more than one woman than our society tends to consider him a stud and it is a sign of his virility and masclunity. 

If a woman does the same thing then she is immediately labeled a slut and a whore and society generally tends to look down upon women to engage in sexual affairs and liasions like that unless they are married.

The game is all about leveling the playing field and it now actually becoming something more of a legal requirement because if you do not understand this stuff then you can and will be held legally liable in a court of law and I say that because of all the sexual harrassment cases that are and have been coming up which employers are legally liable for whether they like it or not and in the state of California a man can be arrested and tried for rape even if he is married based solely upon the body language of his wife or lover.

That should tend to get people to stop and think about the signifigance of this whole thing.


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## Jazzey (Jul 2, 2009)

What game?:search:



> From a social and scientific standpoint it is not advantageous for a woman to sleep with every guy that she meets because there exists the very real possibility that she could get pregnant and that is not to mention as to what society will say about her either.
> 
> Guys on the other hand don't have that social stigma placed upon them either evolutionarily to through society and in fact it is scientifically beneficial for a guy to mate with more than one woman because that increases his chances of producing offspring.



I would argue that this is purely from an evolutionary standpoint.  I'd like to think that in this day and age, our thoughts have progressed.



> The game is all about leveling the playing field and it now actually becoming something more of a legal requirement because if you do not understand this stuff then you can and will be held legally liable in a court of law and I say that because of all the sexual harassment cases that are and have been coming up which employers are legally liable for whether they like it or not and in the state of California a man can be arrested and tried for rape even if he is married based solely upon the body language of his wife or lover.



In my mind's eye, there is a definite difference between courting or wooing someone versus sexual harassment.  That's why one of them is illegal.  If a person (man or woman) refuses advances (in a non-work situation) than that should be the end of that.  In a work context, any overt or covert comments, gestures or innuendos of a sexual nature which are un-welcomed *is* sexual harassment .  Whether it be done by a man or by a woman - both situations exist.

The legal definition of "sexual Harassment":
http://www.equalrights.org/publications/kyr/shwork.asp



> What is sexual harassment?
> 
> Sexual harassment is a form of sex discrimination.The legal definition of sexual harassment is “unwelcome verbal, visual, or physical conduct of a sexual nature that is severe or pervasive and affects working conditions or creates a hostile work environment.”
> 
> ...


Yes, from an evolutionary standpoint, I understand some of the arguments you're making. But pragmatically speaking, you nailed it on the head - still feels like a 'game' which I think is why I have the aversion I do to this idea of pre-programming what happens in relationships.  It still sounds manipulative....


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 12, 2009)

I probably should have put this in the gender differences catagoy, but I did not think about it at the time.

I think that there is something to the whole lovemap concept because as we all know men and women can and do think and act very differently.

Part of it is based upon evolution and biology while other parts tend to relate to both culture and the way in which we are raised.

Another area that I believe that is a strong influence on all of this is the media as we all know that media can and does send messages to both guys and girls about how they are supposed to think and act. A good example of this would be not only the cosmetics industry that basically teaches girls that if they look and act a certain way then they are likely to attract a guy.

Guys have similar messages being thrown at them as well. One message that was popular when I was a kid is that boys are supposed to be rough and tough and that they are not supposed to cry as that tends to show that they are weak, whereas girls were basically taught to be submissive.

This applies not only in American culture but in other cultures around the world as well. One example of this is the way that women are taught in Japan on how to treat a man.

Other examples of this can also be found in the christian religion and in the Bible.

I have been studying this and I have been trying to figure it all out, but without much luck. The closest that I have come to understanding it is through books that I have relating to marketing to women and through some of the writings by Dr. Warren Farrell. One book that is particularly eye opening and that tends to get a person thinking about stuff like this is his book 'Why men are the way they are'. 

I started studying this because I wanted to know what I did right and wrong in a relationship that I had with a girl in 1987, but since that time it has also gotten me to think about even earlier interactions and influences and from what I can determine so far a lot of it for me started sometime either around the age of 5 or 6 or maybe even a little earlier with a girl that once stayed at my parents house who was going to go to Disneyland. 

That was in the early 70's. Outside of that the only other things that I can think of that might have been an influence on me was a movie that I remember seeing when I was in elementary school which was about gender differences. I can't remember the name of the movie, but I do remember that it had a dark haired woman that was basically narrating and hosting the movie. I have tried to look up the name of the movie and the woman via the movie database IMDB, but so far I can't find it at all.

While I can't say for sure I am thinking that what caused me to want to meet the girl that I met in 1987 was based on previous interactions and media influence. One interaction and influence that think may have made me want to talk to this girl probably occured when I was in the 3rd grade with a blonde haired girl that met and that I thought I had a relationship with for a while. 

I am asking myself these questions so that I can try to figure out as to what my own attraction circuitry is and as to what I might need to do to myself to make myself more attractive and popular with members of the opposite sex.

For those who don't know as to what the game is, it is all about the dating, mating, and relating scene that has been going on between men and women since the dawn of time and I believe that it is important to understand because whether we like it or not men and women can and will not only seek each other out for things like romance and sex, but also because both genders are now working in the workforce and understanding it better as well as the game can help to understand not only yourself better, but others as well and from a business standpoint it can also help to cut down on the number sexual harrassment claims and charges that can and do happen to both individuals and to companies and whether people like it or not companies do have a legal obigation to this because they can and will be held legally liable for any and all sexual harrassment cases that might occur on their property and that is something that both the courts and the government are taking very, very seriously.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jul 12, 2009)

rdonovan1 said:


> Another area that I believe that is a strong influence on all of this is the media as we all know that media can and does send messages to both guys and girls about how they are supposed to think and act. A good example of this would be not only the cosmetics industry that basically teaches girls that if they look and act a certain way then they are likely to attract a guy.



See _Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls_ by Mary Pipher (Ballantine Books, 1995).



rdonovan1 said:


> Guys have similar messages being thrown at them as well. One message that was popular when I was a kid is that boys are supposed to be rough and tough and that they are not supposed to cry as that tends to show that they are weak, whereas girls were basically taught to be submissive.



See:


William Pollack, _Real Boys: Rescuing Our Sons from the Myths of Boyhood_ (andom House, 1998).

David Baxter, _Growing Up Male - Raising Sons_ (_Capital Parent_, 2001).


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## rdonovan1 (Jul 12, 2009)

David Baxter said:


> See _Reviving Ophelia: Saving the Selves of Adolescent Girls_ by Mary Pipher (Ballantine Books, 1995).
> 
> 
> 
> ...





That growing up male link was very interesting to read. 

Some of the books that I have been introduced to are 'The Mating Mind', 'The Mating Game', 'Driven: How human nature shapes our choices', 'Marketing to women', and a number of other books relating to the subject.

I also have 'Absent Fathers, Lost Sons', 'Man Enough: Fathers, Sons, and the search for maculinity', 'Femininities, Masculinities, Sexualities', 'Genderspeak, Men, Women, and the Gentle art of verbal self defense'.

I've got so many books relating to dating, mating, and relating that I have collected over the years. Some have been recommended to me while others are ones that I have found on my own.

All of it is stuff that I got to help me to try to understand things that I have not only been taught but have also experienced personally and that is why I am looking back at all of my interactions with women as I am trying to understand as to what I have been doing right and wrong with them and I am trying to figure out as to what I need to change about both myself and my life so that I am more successfull with them and so that I can try to avoid a lot of the scams and bs that are out there as I am tired of being lied to and and manipulated by people.

The way that I see it now especially when it comes to the dating, mating and relating scene is that I am not going to give a woman anything unless I really want to and even then that is going to be limited to girls that I am already in a relationship with and am having sex with.


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