# Personal Boundaries and How to Get Them



## David Baxter PhD

*What are Personal Boundaries and How to Get them* 
by Darlene Lancer 
March 19, 2013

Love can?t exist without boundaries, even with your children. It?s easy to understand_ external_ boundaries as your _bottom line._  Think of rules and principles you live by when you say what you will or  won?t do or allow. If you have difficulty saying no, override your  needs to please others, or are bothered by someone who is demanding,  controlling, criticizing, pushy, abusive, invasive, pleading, or even  smothering you with kindness, it?s your responsibility to speak-up.  Boundaries also are also _internal_, discussed below.

*Types of boundaries* 
There are several areas where boundaries apply:


Material boundaries determine whether you give or loan things, such as your money, car, clothes, books, food, or toothbrush.
Physical boundaries pertain to your personal space, privacy, and  body. Do you give a handshake or a hug ? to whom and when? How do you  feel about loud music, nudity, and locked doors?
Mental boundaries apply to your thoughts, values, and opinions. Are  you easily suggestible? Do you know what you believe, and can you hold  onto your opinions? Can you open-mindedly to listen to someone else?s,  without becoming rigid? If you become highly emotional, argumentative,  or defensive, you may have weak emotional boundaries.
Emotional boundaries distinguish separating your emotions and responsibility for them from someone else?s. It?s like an _imaginary line_  or force field that separates you and others. Healthy boundaries  prevent you from giving advice, blaming or accepting blame. They protect  you from feeling guilty for someone else?s negative feelings or  problems and taking others? comments personally. High reactivity  suggests weak emotional boundaries. Healthy emotional boundaries require  clear internal boundaries ? knowing your feelings and your  responsibilities to yourself and others.
Sexual boundaries protect your comfort level with sexual touch and activity ? what, where, when, and with whom.
Spiritual boundaries relate to your beliefs and experiences in connection with God and a higher power.

*Why it?s hard* 
It?s hard for codependents to set boundaries because: 


They put  others? needs and feelings first; 
They don?t know themselves; 
They  don?t feel they have rights; 
They believe setting boundaries  jeopardizes the relationship; and 
They never learned to have healthy  boundaries.

 Boundaries are learned. You didn?t learn you had rights or  boundaries, if yours weren?t valued growing up. Any kind of abuse  violates personal boundaries, including teasing. For example, my brother  ignored my pleas for him to stop tickling me until I could barely  breathe. This made me feel powerless and that I didn?t have a right to  say ?_Stop_? when I was uncomfortable. In recovery, I gained the capacity to tell a masseuse to _Stop_  and use less pressure. In some cases, boundary violations affect a  child?s ability to mature into an independent, responsible adult.

*You have rights* 
You may not believe you have any rights if yours weren?t respected  growing up. For example, you have a right to privacy, to say ?No,? to be  addressed with courtesy and respect, to change your mind or cancel  commitments, to ask people you hire to work the way you want, to ask for  help, to be left alone, to conserve your energy, and to not answer a  question, the phone, or an email.


Think about all the situations where these rights apply.
Write how you feel and how you currently handle them.
How often do you say ?Yes,? when you?d like to say, ?No??
Write want you want to happen.
List your personal bill of rights. What prevents you from asserting them?
Write statements expressing your bottom line. Be kind. For example,  ?Please don?t criticize me (or call, or borrow my . . .),? and ?Thank  you for thinking of me, but I regret I won?t be joining (or able to  help) you . . .?

*Internal boundaries* 
Internal boundaries involve regulate your relationship with yourself.  Think of them as self-discipline and healthy management of time,  thoughts, emotions, behavior and impulses. If you?re procrastinating,  doing things you neither have to nor want to do, or overdoing and not  getting enough rest, recreation, or balanced meals, you may be  neglecting internal physical boundaries. Learning to manage negative  thoughts and feelings empowers you, as does the ability to follow  through on goals and commitments to yourself.

 Healthy emotional and mental internal boundaries help you not assume  responsibility for, or obsess about, other people?s feelings and  problems ? something codependents commonly do, followed by violating  others? emotional boundaries with unwanted advice. Strong internal  boundaries curb suggestibility. You think about yourself, rather than  automatically agreeing with others? criticism or advice. You?re then  empowered to set external emotional boundaries if you choose. Similarly,  since you?re accountable for your feelings and actions, you don?t blame  others. When you?re blamed, if you don?t feel responsible, instead of  defending yourself or apologizing, you can say, ?I don?t take  responsibility for that.?

*Guilt and resentment* 
Anger is often a signal that action is required. If you feel  resentful or victimized and are blaming someone or something, it might  mean that you haven?t been setting boundaries. If you feel anxious or  guilty about setting boundaries, remember, your relationship suffers  when you?re unhappy. Once you get practice setting boundaries, you feel  empowered and less anxiety, resentment, and guilt. Generally, you  receive more respect from others and your relationships improve.

*Setting effective boundaries* 
People often say they set a boundary, but it didn?t help. There?s an  art to setting boundaries. If it?s done in anger or by nagging ? ?I?ve  told you 100 times . . .,? you won?t be heard. Boundaries are not meant  to punish, but are for your well-being and protection. They?re more  effective when you?re assertive, calm, firm, and courteous. If that  doesn?t work, you may need to communicate consequences to encourage  compliance. It?s essential, however, that you never threaten a  consequence you?re not fully prepared to carry out.

 It takes time, support, and relearning to be able to set effective  boundaries. Self-awareness and learning to be assertive are the first  steps. Setting boundaries isn?t selfish. It?s self-love ? you say ?Yes,?  to you, each time you say ?No.? It builds self-esteem. But it usually  takes encouragement to make yourself a priority and to persist,  especially when you receive pushback. Read more on setting boundaries in  _Codependency for Dummies_ and my ebook, _How to Speak Your Mind and Set Limits._


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## GDPR

> When you’re blamed, if you don’t feel responsible, instead of defending yourself or apologizing, you can say, “I don’t take responsibility for that.”



That sounds so simple! I am going to try that,starting today.

It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the other person to take back what they have blamed me for.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Well, it sounds simple.   It's awesome to have tools to help us learn about ourselves and how to deal with other people.  It's easy in concept, but sometimes, a person "knows" something or "understands" - but it's the getting into the habit and gaining confidence and developing that new tool (and I cannot speak for everyone, I'm referring to myself at least)...

So be patient with yourself.  Think of it this way: what happened in childhood is kind of laid down in your brain like an encrypted code or a hard-to-detect echo in the back of your mind.  In times of stress or chaos you might just automatically revert back to your usual tool belt, which you've had all your life.  You may need to learn to listen.  I mean really listen and be mindful of those background noises, in order to help you accomplish the task at hand.

Don't worry, though, I'm not saying it's hopeless at all.  Far from it.  In fact you seem to be a really quick learner (and also very willing learner), which helps you immensely.  I am only saying this because in plain black and white the information makes perfect sense, it just may take the "emotional" mind a little longer to catch up.  You know how the logical side works but the emotional (maybe I am not using the correct term) side sometimes makes learned patterns or beliefs really tough to bend...  Eventually they do, though, so keep doing what you're doing and it'll work.  The mind is very malleable and plastic, and can relearn...  Neurological pathways can actually change with effort.  

What may help (although it is different for everyone) is meditating. For example, I used to feel tremendous guilt for putting down boundaries.  I couldn't shake the feeling that I was doing something bad.  But my therapist advised me to take some time to myself and do some deep breathing exercises...  And repeat to myself in that calm state: "I am _not_ a bad person.  I am making _healthy_ boundaries.  I will become confident with _practice_.  I am _not_ being "mean."  I am being _healthy_."  And etc...

Just sayin' - be patient with yourself.   But go for it!!  ♥



> It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost  always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the  other person to take back what they have blamed me for.


Definitely.  Some master manipulators try to get someone yelling, for example, so they can be made to look foolish or unstable.  It's a mean little trick, but it's a possibility.  Also some people get intense satisfaction when you start yelling and becoming defensive, so it's a real pain in their butt when you don't react emotionally like they expected.    Mwahahahahaaa!  Double points for you if you don't even act smug.    At first you may not feel authentic doing it, but you will transform into a confident person when you know what your rights and boundaries need to be.  ♥


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## GDPR

> Some master manipulators try to get someone yelling, for example, so they can be made to look foolish or unstable. It's a mean little trick, but it's a possibility. Also some people get intense satisfaction when you start yelling and becoming defensive,



So True.And my kids know that once they push my buttons and get me so upset that I am yelling I will soon start feeling guilty for it and start blaming myself and apologizing to them....and then I am putty in their hands and they will end up getting their way.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Ah!  I posted this somewhere else today, but I think you might like it, too!  






And likewise:  

 

  << ---  What you might want to say to people who push your buttons...

 



And so on...


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Yes, please note the increasing amount of sarcasm as the pictures continue.

It does seem to be somewhat helpful.  I don't always say what's on my mind, but these pictures sum it up nicely.  

Humour does help, and sarcasm is just the right amount of "you don't push my buttons, you give me fodder for my jokes" and "you may try to bother/manipulate me with guilt, but as you can see, it isn't working."

Mind you, if the button-pusher is likely to have a temper-tantrum, that speaks volumes about his/her self, doesn't it?    Just watch out though, the immediate satisfaction of finally getting them to have a hissy fit can also cause them to act out emotionally (then or later when you aren't expecting it, and in ways you may not see coming)...   So it's better, I find, to come here and talk about your thoughts, or keep them to yourself.  

But it's how I coped sometimes.  Mouthing off the whole time, but inside my head.   

Please note: The most infuriating for them, though, is when you _don't engage at all_, but say something like, "I'm done with this conversation" or just without words: sip your tea, cut your vegetables, read your paper, water your garden, walk away, _detach and/or leave_ - and don't speak a word, show no irritation, maybe just raise an eyebrow (inside voice:  "Oh you _think_ you can get me to respond, eh?  Well, this is the _new_ me.  I'm not playing your game.  So just watch me _not_ respond!  And I can sit here and be amused by your reaction").  lol   My first choice would be to leave and take yourself right out of that, but sometimes there is a reason for being unable to leave right at that moment.

Also, because some people are master-manipulators, it is wisest not to be alone with them.  If at all possible, always have someone else there with you when they are around, so there is a witness and that Button-Pusher can't go to people and say that you did something crazy/mean/ridiculous and try to make you look bad.  I know it's hard to do sometimes, but in a case where you're alone, I would leave.  And you can also meet them in a public place, a neutral ground, rather than in your home/haven.  ♥

This helps/helped a bit (for me) for emotional detachment when dealing with difficult douches, so maybe it will help you.


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## Darkside

Its a real struggle that's for sure. Sometimes I find myself defending my boundaries by attacking another person - which is a violation of their boundaries. Learning how to set boundaries effectively takes time and practice. It means failing and learning from the mistake. 

One thing I've learned recently dealing with my sister (a notorious boundary violator) is that I don't have to respond to every email or text message. I don't have to win the argument. I am permitted to be clear about my needs and limits in one message - it doesn't take 10 messages or even 2. Just one!  I've noticed that the people who expect me to be co-dependent will react with anger and argument to any boundaries I set because I have taught them in the past that I will usually give in or even apologize if they keep it up. They will call me rude and mean because I set a limit and they will try to take down the boundary with anger, yelling, guilt, or blame. Those are all tools of someone who doesn't accept boundaries or limits. 

With people like that I line my boundary with barbed wire and no trespassing signs because past dealings have taught me they will not respect my boundaries otherwise. But what I've found is that I have a stockpile of grenades that I launch over the boundary at them when I am stressed and that is something I am trying to unlearn. I think it comes from lack of patience with myself and the belief that I don't have the right to say "no" and mean it or that I will give in to the demand.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Yes!  I know the feeling!! 

My mom used to constantly push against any boundaries.  And I totally know what you mean about jumping to answer the phone or feel like you immediately have to reply.  You don't.  

I am fortunate (in a way) that my mother moved to BC and I am in Saskatchewan.  I have blocked her phone number, email, and facebook.  I am currently at a point in my life when I realize she is never going to change, and in order for me to be able to even LIKE her or at least not HATE her, I've had to stop communications with her.   Unfortunately, because my dad has given up his Self and can only seem to feel whole with HER controlling him, I've had to let go of my dad, too.  Besides, he was the man that showed me twisted love: stay with your abuser, no matter what.  No matter what!  Because staying with someone who doesn't value you, but wants to control you, that's love.   Not.  It's enabling, is what it is.  

I also agree with you.  They still try to push your buttons.  And then when/if you finally do allow your emotions to explode, they get intense pleasure from the outburst, or use the opportunity to point out to others that you are unstable or crazy, not them.  

It's like some of them think you belong to them, you are under their control.  You are a thing to play with, not a human being.  If you show them signs that you are happy doing what you want, it's infuriating to them.  You "aren't allowed" to be happy without them.  You should be ashamed that you have your own life/mind/happiness without them.  It blows their mind when you continue to live your life on your own terms.  

lol  The best revenge is a life well-lived, someone said.


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## Darkside

jollygreenjellybean said:


> Yes!  I know the feeling!!
> 
> My mom used to constantly push against any boundaries.  And I totally know what you mean about jumping to answer the phone or feel like you immediately have to reply.  You don't.
> 
> I am fortunate (in a way) that my mother moved to BC and I am in Saskatchewan.  I have blocked her phone number, email, and facebook.  I am currently at a point in my life when I realize she is never going to change, and in order for me to be able to even LIKE her or at least not HATE her, I've had to stop communications with her.   Unfortunately, because my dad has given up his Self and can only seem to feel whole with HER controlling him, I've had to let go of my dad, too.  Besides, he was the man that showed me twisted love: stay with your abuser, no matter what.  No matter what!  Because staying with someone who doesn't value you, but wants to control you, that's love.   Not.  It's enabling, is what it is.
> 
> I also agree with you.  They still try to push your buttons.  And then when/if you finally do allow your emotions to explode, they get intense pleasure from the outburst, or use the opportunity to point out to others that you are unstable or crazy, not them.
> 
> It's like some of them think you belong to them, you are under their control.  You are a thing to play with, not a human being.  If you show them signs that you are happy doing what you want, it's infuriating to them.  You "aren't allowed" to be happy without them.  You should be ashamed that you have your own life/mind/happiness without them.  It blows their mind when you continue to live your life on your own terms.
> 
> lol  The best revenge is a life well-lived, someone said.



How does she react to that JGJB? Does she keep finding ways to communicate with you? One day my daughter is going to have to make the same decision you did and break contact with her mother. If she doesn't I don't know what will become of her.

When any of my children are here with me overnight she overwhelms them with text messages. Not one or two but 5 or 6 long text messages. I actually find it ridiculous ... I mean her desperation is so obvious I almost feel sorry for her. Not quite ... but almost.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Yeah, my mom used to try.  She even still occasionally does.

How she used to was with cards and letters.  However she wouldn't write the return address.  So I would check the postage stamp whenever I got an envelope without a return address and if it said BC I'd know.   I used to open and read some of them.  But they were more of the same.  It was "poor me" and she always trying to make it sound like none of (the abuse: now or when I was growing up) it was her fault, because excuses excuses excuses.  The reason I blocked her on the phone (and she doesn't know our cell phone number), and blocked her email and FB was the same thing.  Or weird letters, for example, she sent a Jehovah's Witness-type pamphlet one time, with several things underlined and outlined with yellow marker.  After a while I'd ask David to check them, and if they were more of the same or not, I'd ask him to please throw it in the garbage.  After a while they stopped sending anything in the mail.

The only time I wrote back was when they finally sold a house I used to have title to (there is a HUGE long story there, but let's just say I am glad I got off the title before they moved to BC) and sent me a cheque in the mail with a Christmas card.  I could see it was there, through the front of the envelope, so I sent it back, unopened, inside our own Christmas card saying simply: "Thanks, but we don't need your money.  Have a Merry Christmas."

I also caught wind of my mother trying to drag information out of other family members.  But thankfully we either don't tell certain relatives what's going on, and we know who won't tell, and we don't post anything of importance anymore on Facebook (because last year somehow, even though we blocked them from FB my parents found out my husband was ill from diverticulosis bleeds)...  My parents have even come in person to visit my gramma (who my mom has hung up on before and threatened never to call anymore) to try to get information out of her or others.  My gramma has Alzheimer's and her memory is going, but she's still pretty spry.  My aunts don't say anything.

My mom has even pestered my mother-in-law (whom I love dearly).  Before this ever started my mom would call up David's mom at all hours, and she finally told her to stop.  She was working the next day, so it wasn't very nice of my mother to wake her up!!!  More recently my parents must have discovered they still had my MIL's email address and started emailing her.  I offered to block them on my MIL email for her, and she accepted.  Because my mom was going to harass her and guilt her, etc.  And my MIL knows all about the things my mom did.

My brother, on the other hand, went silent on my mother several years before I did.  My mom would try to get ME to be the passenger pigeon/flying monkey.  I said "No More" one day and after that, she only tried one more time to get me to tell my brother she had cancer (it was lie, but she wanted me to try it because it had worked on someone else to stop yelling at her).  I said No again.  No one has ever given my parents my brother's home address.  But she used to call and call and leave ridiculous messages.  First she would be a nice and then another day she'd be crying, then another day she'd be angry and threatening, and thus the cycle would repeat.  I don't know why they let her leave messages, but they did have others listen to the messages, so they were trying to show people, "See?  My mom is a loon."  However, sometimes only my brother and sister-in-law could understand what the message "really" meant, and an innocent bystander wouldn't notice anything.  Other than that, my brother didn't reply much or say anything in emails other than "Everything is good here, how are you?"  lol  At the time when I was still talking to her, this infuriated her.  She would mention to me, matter of factly, several times a month: "You know, we send him a page of interesting things going on in our lives, and he only writes back one or two sentences." 

Now, it's very peaceful.  I have no idea how they are doing, and I don't ask for information about them.  I don't mind if someone volunteers, but otherwise I don't want to hear it.  And the relatives who respect that boundary I am still talking to.  Others I talk to but I don't bother telling of the important things like when David was diagnosed with cancer.  I've had to make peace with myself (as did my brother)... We aren't sure, but we think if my mother dies, we MIGHT go to the funeral if Dad would have us.  If Dad dies, we for sure aren't going to the funeral, because my mother would be there.  Funerals are for the living to remember the dead, not for the ones left behind to argue and abuse.  So we'll likely just honour our dead parents our own way, but not by traveling hundreds of miles just to be rebuked and possibly screamed at.

I figure we're estranged, so if someone tries to contact me saying my parents need care from their children, I will tell them we don't talk and they knew that and should have prepared for when they were sick.  Besides they have one enmeshed brother they've paid off and crippled emotionally to the point where I don't mind if they give my money that could have been willed to me, to be willed to him.  Because he's gonna need every penny, as he is as helpless as a babe in the woods without someone controlling him.  I don't even think my youngest brother (in Edmonton) minds.  We both are okay not to get any money in a will or in any other form from them.

Anything she's ever given us is leverage for her.  Any "gift" always has had a secret contract that only she knows about, and can change without anyone signing anything at her discretion.  I heard her making up some kind of calculation in front of me and my husband, purposely, something about he will be getting some money from the will, but minus the amount of time my brother wasn't/isn't talking to them.  So I imagine it will be something along those lines for me, too.  lol  That was an obvious attempt to get me to tell my brother about the will "unless he starts to talk to his parents again" and also to me, that if I ever pulled anything like that, I'd likely get reduced or no money in the will as well.

Sorry this is so long.  In my support group, I've had ladies tell me some mothers will rage on their doorstop until the daughter calls the police on them.  I have also heard that some of these mothers have called social services or slandered them in some way, or brought false charges against them.  Eventually it DOES come back to bite these lunatics in their butts, because false charges have consequences.   I know some daughters are also physically disabled and are unable to get away, but want to in the worst way.  Some are so far in debt they feel they have no choice but to live with their mothers, and their mothers make sure everyone knows about "my poor daughter" and "what a good mother I am" for putting up with this wayward daughter, etc.  Others do what my parents did, and try to rally other people to be their puppets and minions.  Some are absolutely fine with the silence, and actually think they are punishing their daughters by withholding their affection, but when this happens the daughters are actually fine with it.  lol  Some daughters move and change their phone numbers without saying anything.

There is no real way to figure out what will happen, until it happens.  I guess your daughter will have to gauge things, be well supported (therapist, family on her side, etc) and have a really good plan (how much money to save in a private account, not joint with mother, looking for apartments, etc).   It can sometimes take years (like it did with me) for her to accept that she is not a bad daughter for protecting herself.  It may take a couple years or decades for your daughter to realize that her mom is the one with the problem, not her.  And of course, it will also take time to rebuild and find her Self.  

I've run across ladies of all ages, even early 20s though, who have escaped the dysfunction, or understand it enough to distance themselves emotionally while still being under the same roof.  I'm not saying it's hopeless, but be prepared in case it's a long haul, shall we say.    You very well may have to exercise your own no-contact with your daughter. I sure hope it doesn't come to that, but be prepared for that also.

Therapy therapy therapy!  You would be surprised at what a psychologist can tell you (I have a Cognitive Behaviour Therapist, but there are different kinds)...  Also get support.  I suggest Google.  There's nothing like having other people around you who've been through what you're going through and know what you're talking about.  Like here!

Sorry I've blathered on so long...  Let me know if I can help.  I will do my best.  I'm a little bit under stress myself these days but I could PM you a couple of things or something.


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## GDPR

Lost_In_Thought said:


> That sounds so simple! I am going to try that,starting today.
> 
> It might work much better than defending myself,because that almost always turns into me yelling and losing my temper trying to get the other person to take back what they have blamed me for.



Last night,my son was blaming me,saying that I was the reason he is homeless,I am the reason he uses,that if I would just let him move back home he could be clean,etc. and even though there was a million different things I wanted to say to him,wanted to scream at him,I simply said "I don't take responsibility for that" and said nothing else.

It didn't take away what I was feeling,it didn't change all the hurt and pain,but it did prevent a big argument and really was a better way to handle it.

Jolly,your post gave me anxiety because a lot of it sounded familiar.My mom sent something in the mail a few months ago,something she had found online and printed out.It had a hidden meaning in it,one to hurt me,and it did.My husband read it and was so upset that he said I should just rip up anything else she sends instead of opening them.She still manages to hurt me so deeply even though I cut her from my life a few years ago,and I need to put a stop to it.


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## Peter

Interesting thread.

Personally I try to limit my boundaries as much as possible.
Why? Because boundaries are limits between what I fear and do not fear. My degree of fear determines where I draw the boundary line.
Before the boundary line, fear has no hold on me. After the boundary line, I become fearful.

The trouble with fears is that once I fear, I feed it. In doing so I create an unhappy destiny.
By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.

The more fears I face in life, the less likely I became prey to unwarranted (unreal) fears in the future.
These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self). The less fears I harbor, the closer I get to my calm true-self.
That is why the fearless person is calm, and sees the deeper truths of reality - not the unreal fear.

As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.


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## PrincessX

At Jollybeanjellygreen: Long post, but every word in it makes sense. I apply some of these strategies to my hb's mother. I do not even call her mother-in-law. To me the word "mother" is associated with caring attitude. To be a mother does not happen by biological connection. She and her husband have always been disrespectful towards me, deniying any of my personal or professional achievements, treating me like a homeless person, when, in fact, I was never homeless, reminding me of any periods of poorness of hardship I have had in my past, trying to convince the world I am a bad housewife and mother, trying to convince that they are somehow "higher" class people and I never deserved to be part of their "aristocrat" family. Then, after we married (we did not have a wedding because of them, we both did not want them there at this time), his mother started insisting that I should call her "mom" or nothing. I replied by stopping to talk to her at all. I do not have a problem contacting them with formalities and I do not address them in any way when I do. Same way, I can not call his father "dad". To me the word "dad" is associated with attitude and qualities that this person does not have. Back in my 20s, I decided that the bullying and manipulation from them was over, my family was not going to suffer abuse coming from them. I stopped talking to them, I ended up the relationship. I do not need their hatred, thier money or whatever else they might possess. Now, that they know I do not want anything from them, they have some respect and remain silent.


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## Darkside

PrincessX said:


> At Jollybeanjellygreen: Long post, but every word in it makes sense. I apply some of these strategies to my hb's mother. I do not even call her mother-in-law. To me the word "mother" is associated with caring attitude. To be a mother does not happen by biological connection. She and her husband have always been disrespectful towards me, deniying any of my personal or professional achievements, treating me like a homeless person, when, in fact, I was never homeless, reminding me of any periods of poorness of hardship I have had in my past, trying to convince the world I am a bad housewife and mother, trying to convince that they are somehow "higher" class people and I never deserved to be part of their "aristocrat" family. Then, after we married (we did not have a wedding because of them, we both did not want them there at this time), his mother started insisting that I should call her "mom" or nothing. I replied by stopping to talk to her at all. I do not have a problem contacting them with formalities and I do not address them in any way when I do. Same way, I can not call his father "dad". To me the word "dad" is associated with attitude and qualities that this person does not have. Back in my 20s, I decided that the bullying and manipulation from them was over, my family was not going to suffer abuse coming from them. I stopped talking to them, I ended up the relationship. I do not need their hatred, thier money or whatever else they might possess. Now, that they know I do not want anything from them, they have some respect and remain silent.



My family is the same way - so much so that my brother and sister never married because my parents behaved as if they were royalty and better than everyone else. That, plus the general dysfunction of my family, ran off potential spouses. I didn't marry until I was 32 and my parents realized they had better accept my wife or they would never have grandchildren. (a status symbol for them more than the joy of grand parenthood) 

The funny thing is that my mother was dirt poor growing up. Her father was an alcoholic with a 6th grade education and could never hold a job. They moved around from rental house to rental house and often lived with relatives. My father came from a good family and his father was a well-known and well-liked attorney and Judge. She married into a family not to a man and then took it as her own forgetting her own roots.


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## PrincessX

Darkside said:


> My family is the same way - so much so that my brother and sister never married because my parents behaved as if they were royalty and better than everyone else. That, plus the general dysfunction of my family, ran off potential spouses. I didn't marry until I was 32 and my parents realized they had better accept my wife or they would never have grandchildren. (a status symbol for them more than the joy of grand parenthood)



His mother was also poor growing up. Her biggest fear was that he might marry someone without money or "royal" parents. At the time he did exactly *that*. I was never "accepted" by them. It took me some years to figure out that I did not need to be "accepted" by anyone to live with the man I love, given that he wants to live with me as well. I do not give a damn about their "acceptance" criteria, as they do not respond to mine. They are so far away from my standards for human behaviour that I do not even care how far I am from the amount of money and other financial critera that set the height of the acceptance bar in their family.


----------



## Darkside

PrincessX said:


> His mother was also poor growing up. Her biggest fear was that he might marry someone without money or "royal" parents. At the time he did exactly *that*. I was never "accepted" by them. It took me some years to figure out that I did not need to be "accepted" by anyone to live with the man I love, given that he wants to live with me as well. I do not give a damn about their "acceptance" criteria, as they do not respond to mine. They are so far away from my standards for human behaviour that I do not even care how far I am from the amount of money and other financial critera that set the height of the acceptance bar in their family.



Good for you, but that must be hard on your husband. Is he able to maintain a relationship with his family?


----------



## H011yHawkJ311yBean

LIT: Good for you for sticking to your ground with your son.  You are correct, in my humble opinion.  You can't take responsibility for his behaviour.  He has to.  He can't blame you or anyone else.  He can't say "If you do this first, THEN I will do my thing."  I suspect he is the one who has no negotiating ot leverage because of what he's already done.  If anything, you have the upper hand here.  Just remember that.



> Jolly,your post gave me anxiety because a lot of it sounded familiar.My  mom sent something in the mail a few months ago,something she had found  online and printed out.It had a hidden meaning in it,one to hurt me,and  it did.My husband read it and was so upset that he said I should just  rip up anything else she sends instead of opening them.She still manages  to hurt me so deeply even though I cut her from my life a few years  ago,and I need to put a stop to it.



I am so sorry about that LIT, I did not intend for it to cause you anxiety.   I would have to agree with your husband.  That's what we've been doing.  You don't have to jump to answer the phone, you don't have to immediately reply to an email, you don't have to open her mail.  It was tough for me to stop reading the mail, and I even brought some of it to read with my psychologist.  He agreed that it was more of the same (sounded a bit like your son and mom, not taking responsibility but blaming you for things, instead)...  It was at that point that I threw out the rest of a really long letter and began to simply toss out anything without a return address.  Your mom, my mom, they are not going to change.  So we have to.

======================

Peter:
I get what you are saying.  However I feel to a certain extent that if some of us have difficulty figuring out where we begin and where our mother/abuser ends, and so on, it would be wise to figure out ourselves and become better differentiated (when children naturally do this as they grow up with normal loving parents, not when children grow up with an all-consuming, engulfing abuser who tries to blunt their children's egos and make them a hostage rather than a human being).  That is the first boundary that was messed up by the abuser in the first place.  It's really a long road to untangle ourselves from that.   It's like our brains were enmeshed with a hive mind.  For people who were taught by their abusers that they have no boundaries at all, don't you think it is a good idea to show them the opposite?  If it does not work, then a choice would be either to have limited contact or no contact at all.  Or, as I mentioned, detachment emotionally and mentally.  That's really a lot harder for someone in this situation, don't you think?

Boundaries equals definition of Self, for me.  "This is me, not you, I am separate.  Please allow me this distance/space/Me to be, or there will be consequences and I will make sure they are carried out."  Sure there is fear and anxiety to start with, but it becomes easier as you grow on your journey to find yourself and grow your Self.

+++++++++
Regarding forgetting their own roots...
Yes, I know they like to forget anything negative about them.  It's like they are writing their own history in their minds.  They don't like to be reminded of anything from the past that might put them in a negative light.  That was one of the things that was also so frustrating with my own mom.  I kind of understand that her childhood wasn't very easy, either.  But it doesn't make her entitled to cheat on her taxes, underpay her employees, or cut expenses by making shoddy repairs (or taking forever to make any repairs in the first place) on her several rental properties.  She was caught on all of those, by the way, 2 times by Revenue Canada, another time by the Labour Board, another time by Health Services/Rentalsman.  It's amazing what she thinks she can just go ahead and do, like she has no conscience at all and only thinks of herself.  And also as amazing how my dad just lets it all happen.   Hence the distance.


----------



## PrincessX

Darkside said:


> Good for you, but that must be hard on your husband. Is he able to maintain a relationship with his family?



Yes, he is. Fortunately they are far away (I do not think that is entirely accidental ) 
All this dynamic does create tension at times, which happens less and less often as time goes by. Unfortunately, past family abuse, familiy dysfunction always leaves scars regardless of how you choose to deal with it.  
I have even come to the point that I can actually talk to them or pretend to and I do not really care what they say or do, *but* I do not see the need to "fake" a relationship with them, to "fake" being a daughter-in-law to them. I know a lot of people do that, but I would rather be honest to them and myself. I feel better this way, less stressed, not part of a poisonous dynamic, not giving them space to effect my life in any way. I try to have a simple, transparent life. I do not "owe" anyone any part of it, including the effort to maintain fake relationships. Anytime my husband wants to visit them or call them, he is free to do so and this does not directly affect our marriage. He grew up in this athmosphere and it is easier for him to adapt to them. For me, it is impossible. I have seen enough. And enough is enough.

---------- Post Merged at 01:14 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 12:52 PM ----------



Peter said:


> By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.
> 
> As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.



This is very true. I can attest to it even from my experience with the in-laws. I remember that initially, when I was shocked and afraid that they will take us apart forever, even after having children, I was not able to talk to them at all. I wanted to draw a very thick and clear boundary.
Now, I have faced some of this fear and I can actually talk to them, if I want to, but I just do not feel that I want to most of the time.

It is like having a thief in the neighbourhood. If you are afraid from being robbed, you will build a strong fence, so that noone can get into your property. 
If you do not fear being robbed you may keep your house unlocked and not build a fence at all. 
Question is: Is the thief real? Peter says "These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self)". To me the trap is exactly in knowing and respecting your "real self". By the way, I need to read about this ego-self more.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

I think I know what you mean.  My brother and I who are now separate have spouses who really helped open our eyes.

My poor sister-in-law used to have nightmares when my parents were going to visit her.  My brother mistakenly believed the problem was between my SIL and mother, but he now knows he should have been more supportive.  And it was when he started being more supportive of his bride, that's when my mom started going super nutters.  When boundaries were set.

My husband, on the other hand, didn't have to say something when my mother started acting up.  He knew me well, and knew even if she didn't notice that when I clammed up, or went blank so as to not show I was angry or hurt, he would stick up for me.  I used to try to stand up to her, but at some point I realized she always had to be right, and I was always wrong; she was always to be the one in control and if I struggled for my own control (thoughts, life, etc) we'd end up in a ridiculous screaming match.  And I'd feel awful after I lost my temper/control and apologize and my mom would have me under her thumb again (because of guilt and shame, yes LIT?- sound familiar?)...  When I was a child growing up, a youth, she came into my room once and terrorized me until I started crying.  I watched as a look of intense satisfaction spread across her face.  That's how I know she enjoyed pissing me off.  If I thought I was correct or had my own opinion or wanted to make my own decisions without her, she would be sure to break me down and make sure I was "in my place."  Back down with my throat under her foot, where she preferred me.

However, now my brother and SIL are honest/authentic to themselves.  They no longer have a relationship with my mom, and were the first to sever contact, and for very good reasons (because my mom was all up in their business and almost ruined them financially, again, long story).

Princess, same here.  It felt so fake when I was trying to get my name off the title of a house.  It almost made me feel split in two.  But I had to pretend everything was alright.  I had to go behind her back and talk to a real estate lawyer, and found out what my mom had been telling me was a lot of lies to keep me on the title.  She was infuriated that I did that, of course, but moreso because I didn't trust her (which I shouldn't have, and no one should trust my mom).  I had learned from what she had done to my brother.  If I had showed any anxiety or worry or had gotten angry, she might have figured that she had some leverage.  As it was, I think she felt she HAD to help because now I knew the truth.  And we had to kind of do this thing in a hurry because my mom just kind of sprang it on us a couple of months before she and my dad moved.  If I ever felt completely unglued, that was the time.   I felt so fake and so much the liar that it kept me awake at night.

I had to pull it off, though, I felt.  But I've never gone back to that.  Ever.  And I don't plan to again.  I might also mention that I felt our relationship was fake for quite a while, but I was unfortunately still on title, and at one point I was even renting from her.  I felt fear: if I disobeyed or didn't make nice I might get evicted, or something else passive aggressive like raising the rent...  So that meant I was under her control.  I was worried also about my dad. That was the biggest leverage she had. In the past, I didn't realize he would always take her side, and it was a slap in the face when he finally made it clear that he was disappointed in ME.  That he identified with my mother and made HER the victim.  lol  Wow, it was a nasty sting, but that was the last thing that was holding me to this fake relationship with my mom.  I had to let go of both of them.  I realized my dad was a willing hostage, and that's the role he felt most comfortable in.  It's why I had been the hostage in my own relationships: I learned it from him.  However, somehow, I got out of those bad relationships, figured out what actual loving relationships are, and so on.

Sorry, blathering again.  It felt good to get this off my chest again.  I've sort of been letting it be, and stopped talking about it for the longest time.  But I believe I still have some residual anger/sadness (it isn't as bad nowadays, no where near as close to when I was in the dysfunction)... I will have to chat with my therapist again, to squeeze a few more drops out of that sponge. lol


----------



## Darkside

Peter said:


> Interesting thread.
> 
> Personally I try to limit my boundaries as much as possible.
> Why? Because boundaries are limits between what I fear and do not fear. My degree of fear determines where I draw the boundary line.
> Before the boundary line, fear has no hold on me. After the boundary line, I become fearful.
> 
> The trouble with fears is that once I fear, I feed it. In doing so I create an unhappy destiny.
> By facing my fears, I get a chance to overcome them, and my boundary lines become redefined and redrawn.
> 
> The more fears I face in life, the less likely I became prey to unwarranted (unreal) fears in the future.
> These unreal fears come from my false-self (ego-self). The less fears I harbor, the closer I get to my calm true-self.
> That is why the fearless person is calm, and sees the deeper truths of reality - not the unreal fear.
> 
> As my degree of fears become limited, so too do my boundaries. That is my goal in life.



I would like to be able to do that but until I am able (have the necessary skills) my boundaries are important to my well-being.


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## PrincessX

Yes, Darkside, it seems prudent to set these boundaries when out of the liberating state that Peter is talking about. I have experienced what he says though, but only in limited situations. If you are not afraid of let's say your mother or something associated with her (some misbelief), it does not matter if you avoid her or not. She has 0 power over you, even if you talk to her every minute. I can not say I achieved the state of being completely fearless and open to everything. But I have tried to overcome a particular fear. For me, being able to identify and face fear is the most difficult thing to do. Overcoming fear opens up a lot of opportunities, some of them related to blending boundaries that we build before, when we were afraid. I think it takes a lot of effort, a lot of wisdom to realize and overcome some more complex, deeper fears. It is hard work.


----------



## MHealthJo

Peter's comments draw a bit on perspectives that originally come from Eastern philosophy, that all egos, identities,  and / or people (?) are illusions. Some perspectives that draw on Eastern / Buddhist philosophy are interesting, and I've found some modern authors that to me have simplified,  popularised, and clarified some of these thoughts, such as Eckhart Tolle, somewhat useful.

When talking about some areas of life such as  selfhood, toxic people, and toxic or dangerous situations, in my view the best result still can't be attained without self-protective boundary setting. I feel that the thoughts of Eastern philosophy, for most people, are likely to be best used as an adjunct or an augment to that.

I guess once nearing the guru stage, maybe the behaviour of these kind of people could be coped with.... Maybe not, though, because there'd be no time for the guruism or meditation or anything really, because all one's time and life would be filled with doing the bidding of these people, picking up their crazy phone calls, clearing one's answering machine, dealing with consequences and problems from having their behaviour in one's life, etc, etc. 

Having said that, it's true that a plan to deal with and face some fears can be a great opportunity for growth and evolution.


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## GDPR

And another thing to take into consideration is some people must absolutely have boundaries,otherwise they can be abused or even killed.


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## PrincessX

MHealthJo said:


> When talking about some areas of life such as  selfhood, toxic people, and toxic or dangerous situations, in my view the best result still can't be attained without self-protective boundary setting. I feel that the thoughts of Eastern philosophy, for most people, are likely to be best used as an adjunct or an augment to that.
> 
> I guess once nearing the guru stage, maybe the behaviour of these kind of people could be coped with.... Maybe not, though, because there'd be no time for the guruism or meditation or anything really, because all one's time and life would be filled with doing the bidding of these people, picking up their crazy phone calls, clearing one's answering machine, dealing with consequences and problems from having their behaviour in one's life, etc, etc.
> 
> Having said that, it's true that a plan to deal with and face some fears can be a great opportunity for growth and evolution.


You are right, it does not sound very realistic to exist in some guru stage of fearlessness forever. 
That is almost as achievable as living the "hatha yoga" life, i.e. meditating and staying hungry all day.
At the same time there is things to learn and apply from these philosophies.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

In my humble opinion, I did face my fear.  My fear that I had to accept my mother was never going to change.  My fear that my father was going to support her and no one else.  My fears of what would happen if I stayed in that toxic relationship with her, and my fears about what would happen if I left.

I faced the toughest one, for me: how it would be to have them be "dead" to me, and me feeling a bit like an orphan.  I know in my HEAD she's never had any power over me, but now she has none.  I felt in the past that I had to do things or I'd lose something, but now I don't have to worry about that.

Compared to how I USED to feel and how I feel NOW, that's like comparing Hell with Zen, if I can confuse the two cultures... lol


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## GDPR

I don't think discussion about facing fears is even relevant here,unless it's fear of setting boundaries.

I'm starting to feel like it's being implied that if people just face their fears then boundaries aren't even necessary.But to me,facing your fears is the precise reason that boundaries _are _​needed.


----------



## Peter

Hello *jollygreenjellybean, PrincessX*, and* Darkside**.*

Thanking you for feedback.

Please see that some of my posts may paint a picture of what can be possible further up the road.
My personal experience has shown me that such pictures create further stepping stones to attain. 
Then what is between me and 'what is attainable' are just stepping stones (mini-goals).
In doing so, my mini-goals become more doable. They became a means to an end, not an end in itself.

The original post, to this thread, explained many things and pointed to many ways to attaining your boundaries.
My intention was to inform that boundaries are movable and retractable, and not an end in itself.
But at first we need enough self-awareness and self-esteem to attain our boundaries, before we can start retracting them bit by bit.

It is much like knowing that the last stage of _grief and loss_ is 'acceptance'. Knowing this, acceptance becomes the gateway to freedom.
Without knowing this, a person may get stuck, forever, in an earlier stage - such as anger, or blaming. And many have wasted away by doing so.
Once a person knows that acceptance is the goal, then they no longer feel to hang around the earlier stages any longer than necessary.

A similar thread was about building self-esteem. The idea is to build up enough self-esteem to a become less afraid to protect yourself, set down boundaries, and be more self-responsible.
These 'building self-esteem' experiences and laying down boundaries are necessary, but they are not necessarily the goal if one wishes further serenity and peace in their life.
The picture in this case is to build enough self-esteem to no longer need it.

Such pictures are expressed in the hope to helping anybody, who find themselves stuck in an earlier stage, to move on.


----------



## H011yHawkJ311yBean

I am trying to figure this out, too, LIT.  On some level I sort of get it, but I am not sure if I have the whole picture.

I am not a therapist, I have very little psychology in my education, save a class in high school and one in university.  And a huge interest in it outside of a degree/education.  

I _did_ have to put up boundaries in order to face my fears.  Maybe the fear for us is that we actually have to accept that we do have boundaries?  lol  I don't know.  For some people, realizing they are a separate entity from someone else can be very upsetting.  You know, the enmeshment.  It's like you and your abuser are almost conjoined twins.  Except for all the veins and organs intertwining from the mother (who is the parasite) to the host (which is the child) can almost consume the host, and therefore nearly kill the parasite. 

 Not in the physical sense, but the spiritual/mental/subconscious...  Ya know?  To simply pull away from all of that entanglement is really hard and painful.  There's no such thing as fast and precision surgery for that.  It has to happen a little bit at a time.  It's nearly like severing part of yourself away from yourself, and both you and your parasite experience pain at every little separation.  Snip snip.  Slice slice.  When the host separates, there is a feeling of emptiness, and "is this all there is?"  Because the host is used to filling him/herself up with someone else.

However, at some point the host realizes fully what is going on.  This is _not_ a symbiotic relationship.  The only one benefiting is the parasite.  There is some point of no return, or an "A-HA!" moment.  Then it's almost easy to tear the rest off like a bandaid.   The host starts to heal and pull further away, lets himself/herself bleed, comes out the other side of the wound transformed.  The parasite chases the host, scrambling desperately to get a hold once more, and although the host can sometimes be dragged back into the dysfunction, sometimes more than once, I've heard some people (including myself) learn better and there will be a last time.  

I know this is not real (the parent/parasite and the child/host) at least not in the physical sense.  But that is how it _feels_.  And it runs deep.  

At the point of complete isolation from the parasite, the host goes on to live life.  Nothing to suck his/her life energy and happiness away, and feeling fearless. 

The parasite either becomes bitter and turns inward, or looks for another suitable host.


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## GDPR

For me,I know that setting boundaries is a necessity in order to protect myself,and I know I have no choice but to stick with them.Not having boundaries or 'limited' ones is the main reason my life is so full of chaos and drama at the present moment.

This thread is very confusing.It was supposed to be helpful but now it no longer is.


----------



## Peter

Lost_In_Thought said:


> I don't think discussion about facing fears is even relevant here,unless it's fear of setting boundaries.
> 
> I'm starting to feel like it's being implied that if people just face their fears then boundaries aren't even necessary.But to me,facing your fears is the precise reason that boundaries _are _​needed.



Any form of tension is fear-based.

Drawing a line is a way of facing our fears, and it is necessary. However, the more fears we face, the boundary line gets redrawn many times and retracts over time.
As a person becomes more immune to unreal fears (what people say to us, threats, etc.) that person becomes more tolerant, forgiving, allowing, patient, loving, understanding, listening, etc.
All these things I have mentioned do not contain fears. They have been overcome. 
The boundaries we first laid down no longer stand, but have, over time, been redrawn and diminishing.


----------



## GDPR

Peter said:


> As a person becomes more immune to *unreal fears* (*what people say to us, threats, etc.*) that person becomes more tolerant, forgiving, allowing, patient, loving, understanding, listening, etc.



Whoa...are you kidding me?Are you really saying what people say to us,threats,etc.,are 'unreal' fears? 

Maybe for you they are 'unreal',but for me,they are very real fears,and I feel insulted that you would even say otherwise.


----------



## Darkside

PrincessX said:


> Yes, Darkside, it seems prudent to set these boundaries when out of the liberating state that Peter is talking about. I have experienced what he says though, but only in limited situations. If you are not afraid of let's say your mother or something associated with her (some misbelief), it does not matter if you avoid her or not. She has 0 power over you, even if you talk to her every minute. I can not say I achieved the state of being completely fearless and open to everything. But I have tried to overcome a particular fear. For me, being able to identify and face fear is the most difficult thing to do. Overcoming fear opens up a lot of opportunities, some of them related to blending boundaries that we build before, when we were afraid. I think it takes a lot of effort, a lot of wisdom to realize and overcome some more complex, deeper fears. It is hard work.



I have too so I know it is possible but it also requires a pure heart, and we all bring distortions and bias into our relationships. But like Ghandi I believe that the way of truth and love never fails. 



MHealthJo said:


> Peter's comments draw a bit on perspectives that originally come from Eastern philosophy, that all egos, identities,  and / or people (?) are illusions. Some perspectives that draw on Eastern / Buddhist philosophy are interesting, and I've found some modern authors that to me have simplified,  popularised, and clarified some of these thoughts, such as Eckhart Tolle, somewhat useful.
> 
> When talking about some areas of life such as  selfhood, toxic people, and toxic or dangerous situations, in my view the best result still can't be attained without self-protective boundary setting. I feel that the thoughts of Eastern philosophy, for most people, are likely to be best used as an adjunct or an augment to that.
> 
> I guess once nearing the guru stage, maybe the behaviour of these kind of people could be coped with.... Maybe not, though, because there'd be no time for the guruism or meditation or anything really, because all one's time and life would be filled with doing the bidding of these people, picking up their crazy phone calls, clearing one's answering machine, dealing with consequences and problems from having their behaviour in one's life, etc, etc.
> 
> Having said that, it's true that a plan to deal with and face some fears can be a great opportunity for growth and evolution.



In the 70s and 80s I read Ram Dass, Fritz Perls, Carlos Castaneda and others. I was even in  therapy once with a Psychiatrist (back when Psychiatrists did therapy) who used the Zen/Buddhist model in his counseling. I tried living this way but found it too difficult to give up attachments and live in and participate in the world around me. In 2009 I landed in an outpatient facility for 2 weeks where I learned about DBT for the first time. (Marsha Linehan) We spent an entire day practicing the skill of self observation and the "wise mind." Something clicked and I began to rethink some things.

I have always believed that evil is a real force and not an illusion or a projection of humans. I've always believed that evil would exist as an external reality even in the absence of man. But in recent years I've begun to wonder if that is really true. There is a great little book written in the early 1970s by a lady by the name of Elizabeth O'Connor called, "Our Many Selves." She doesn't argue whether evil and good are opposing forces but rather she uses her book to point out how much the world can change when people change.

One of the things that has changed about me in recent years is that I no longer believe that the world is purely black or white or that things (and people) are either good or bad. There are a lot of shades of gray.


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## Peter

jollygreenjellybean, what you wrote in post #28 is very well said.

It is hard and painful, and it takes time.
I am now 60 y.o. and have been facing my truth for all those years, and it is never-ending. But it gets easier and easier. 
Recover from hell works if you work it.
Without working at recover, we won't know how hard, painful, and time it takes. 
Yet all those that do work it develop a life of gratitude for their new found freedom.
Is it worth it? 
Imagine serenity at will.

---------- Post Merged at 11:15 AM ---------- Previous Post was at 11:13 AM ----------

Hello Lost_In_Thought


Lost_In_Thought said:


> Whoa...are you kidding me?Are you really saying what people say to us,threats,etc.,are 'unreal' fears?
> 
> Maybe for you they are 'unreal',but for me,they are very real fears,and I feel insulted that you would even say otherwise.



I am sorry you have felt insulted by what I have written. Please let my explain further about unreal fears, it may help to lessen the felt insult.

What people say are just words which we interpret. It is our interpretation which causes the fears in us. Not what is said.

Words are sound waves from a persons mouth which our ears pick up and send to the brain. It is our mind, and our collection of beliefs, that censor, label and place meaning to those sound waves.
It is OUR interpretations (by our beliefs) which determines a threat to our ego or not. This threat is our fears.

What a person may say, comes from their opinion. All is opinion, including this post. It is OUR mind that determines if we accept the opinion or not.

There is an old saying: Our focus determines our reality.
If we do not like our reality, we do have the power to change our focus (our interpretation to a more positive one).

The difference between a real and unreal fear:
A real fear is considered to be one where our life is in direct danger, such as walking across a street and about to get hit by a car.
An unreal fear is one that is not necessarily so, but imagined. In some cases it might happen, but at the time it has not, or it is not necessarily going to happen.
It is well known that at least 70% of our fears are unreal.


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## Darkside

Peter, the only thing I would add is that a lot of people here have suffered physical and sexual abuse as children. Those are more than just words to a child. Those are real boundaries which humanity and decency entitle us - especially as children. The fear and confusion with no means to protect ourselves (bodies and mind) is a direct result of a violation of those boundaries and have led many of us to believe we have no right to our own bodies or to our own souls.

I was also going to point out the sheer volume of work by reputable therapists and psychologists on the entire notion of boundaries made it clear that it is a legitimate concept which helps people sort out relationship issues and learn that they do have the right to be free from that kind of abuse. But that doesn't mean there isn't a better way. In fact, the notion of boundaries may have been so thoroughly consumerized that no one has stopped to think where we go from here. Perhaps boundaries are just a waypoint - a signpost along the road. 

The bottom line for me is that people did me harm as a child and there are plenty of bad people out there in the world who would do me harm now if I am not vigilant. I can't change someone's nature just because I have overcome my attachment to fear.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Oh, okay, I understand that now.  I was confused also.

That part where you explained what you meant about a real fear and an unreal fear...

I know a part of my relationship with my parents was based on real fear, and some was based on unreal fear.  I do know that when I was a child, I had very little control, and then when I became an adult, I was still controlled by the now unreal fear that I still had no control.  That might be simplifying things, but there were also still _some_ issues where, perhaps not always fear, but definitely caution, played an integral part in that relationship, because there were some real dangers.

The thing is, my parents/mother's word (in her mind) was law, and to have one's own opinion, to her was a threat.  A threat that I was going "against" her, rather than just being my own self, which I am supposed to do.  A threat that I hated her, rejected her, or didn't want to be with her.  So because of this "unreal" fear, she could do something that could instill "real fear" because, she was unpredictable and could do some "real damage."   Not so much physical damage when I became an adult, but something financially devastating, something taken away from you that you really need, etc.   Or at least she would try.  Her favourite game was withholding affection.  Is that not a "real fear," at least when we are children?  At least as an adult we can learn better to love ourselves, and it will become an "unreal fear."  Withholding affection: taking you out of the will, not speaking to her grandchildren, or worse... Vengeance: calling social services and making false reports that you are a bad mother, threatening to take your child away from you, threatening to evict you, somehow making other family members believe that you are a bad daughter, etc...

Anyways, there might be some grey area between what is a real fear and what is an unreal fear, then.  I am still not 100% sure I understand what you mean.  But I know you meant well.


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## MHealthJo

The thoughts in psychology and philosophy about being careful of interpretations are valid.

However there is also the concept of abuse and abusive people, or invasion of another's rights. These things are outside of the realm of 'interpretation' and of 'nothing can hurt me if I am enlightened enough'.

There are people with intent to use us or harm us. They can and will, if a boundary is not carefully put and kept between us and certain people or certain behaviour.

If someone believes otherwise, they may not have had to be vigilant against the situation of being used by one of these people recently.

---

I guess it can be a precarious topic where care must be taken, on a psychology and mental health forum where there will be many who have had to spend literally years in therapy to be able to accept and understand the important concept of boundaries, and that they were used and abused, while their lying abusers told them the whole time "you are misinterpreting", "you're being selfish", etc.

Boundaries are the way forward in lots of situations, and in many cases certain boundaries must stay in place and not be removed.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Sorry, but all this talk about serenity reminded me of this:

Best of serenity now - YouTube


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## Peter

Thanks *Darkside* and *jollygreenjellybean.* Very good and valid responses.

Please let me tell you a bit about myself.

My childhood also contains sexual and physical abuse. Mentally, I was a nervous wreck. At school I was regarded as the class idiot. After I left home I became addict-alcoholic for 16 years. Throughout those years are volumes of stories and experiences I would not wish on my old enemies - not even my father. 
At the age of 34 I was close to alcoholic death from internal hemorrhaging. I had two options, continue on self-sabotage or recover. I opted for recovery.
It was hard to change a lifetime of being a certain way. All my beliefs, philosophies of life, were twisted to support a life that just wanted to die. Recovery (to live) was foreign to me, and full of fear.
But if I wanted to live, I had no choice but to face my fears. I had a lot of help, and still do, from self-help groups and people like myself in recovery - just like yourselves.

For me, the main part of recovery was to learn the truth behind my life experiences. 
First I had to trust and accept help from others.
Then be ruthfully honest to myself, and to those I trusted. This helped me to accept myself fully (abused, alcoholic, using others for self gain, etc, etc.)
Then I had to learn to change everything around that was twisted and untrue in me (not others).
From such self-honesty and changes in self, I was able to see the truth in others, including the insanity of my abusers.
Through similar identification of my own insanity, with others, I was able to forgive and let go of them. This took many years of recovery to fully understand and accept.
I have been changing and improving ever since I was thirty four.

In between those 26 years of recovery I went back to school. Gained a pass into university. Gained a degree in counselling. worked as a counsellor for ever since.
I know from experience that people can overcome adversities and change from a seemingly hopeless state of mind to one of good use to self and others.
As a good friend of mine says: "My life is not the old one polished up, but a brand new one beyond my imaginings of my past."

We can change if we are willing to _work_ at it. (knowledge is the beginning of change, not the end). 
Change takes practice, simulation, experimentation, prayer, trusting, taking a risk, facing our fears, etc.
If nothing changes, nothing changes. It is totally up to ourselves. Nobody can do it for us.
If we want it bad enough, we will do the work that is required for change.

My serenity is my measure of growth (change) in my life.

---------- Post Merged at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:25 PM ----------



MHealthJo said:


> The thoughts in psychology and philosophy about being careful of interpretations are valid.
> 
> However there is also the concept of abuse and abusive people, or invasion of another's rights. These things are outside of the realm of 'interpretation' and of 'nothing can hurt me if I am enlightened enough'.
> 
> There are people with intent to use us or harm us. They can and will, if a boundary is not carefully put and kept between them and us.
> 
> If someone believes otherwise, they have not had opportunity to live with / be mixed up with / be used by one of these people.
> 
> ---
> 
> It may also be important to take care with these topics on a psychology and mental health forum. Because there are people here who have had to spend literally years in therapy to be able to accept and understand the important concept of boundaries, and that they were used and abused, while their lying abusers told them the whole time "you are misinterpreting", "you're being selfish", etc.
> 
> Boundaries are the way forward in lots of situations, and in many cases certain boundaries must stay in place and not be removed.


I agree with you. I still have boundaries that are for self protection, especially for physical abuse.

Sorry to have assumed others would understand my posts. Please forgive my intrusion.


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## MHealthJo

No problem, thanks for clarifying your thoughts, Peter


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## rdw

Peter said:


> As a good friend of mine says: "My life is not the old one polished up, but a brand new one beyond my imaginings of my past."
> 
> We can change if we are willing to _work_ at it. (knowledge is the beginning of change, not the end).
> Change takes practice, simulation, experimentation, prayer, trusting, taking a risk, facing our fears, etc.
> If nothing changes, nothing changes. It is totally up to ourselves. Nobody can do it for us.
> If we want it bad enough, we will do the work that is required for change.
> 
> My serenity is my measure of growth (change) in my life.


Perfectly said Peter! You have stated the changes that I had to put into place to make my life my own. Even though my life is not "polished" I am content with the life I lead now. When life becomes crazy, I check in with myself first to figure out what I've let lapse. Often I've allowed someone to step over a boundary in my effort to rescue them - I'm a great rescuer . The changes then begin with me to reestablish my feelings of serenity.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean

Thank you Peter, this full explanation now makes sense to me.  You did not intrude, I just think we misunderstood you, as you only told us part of what you meant, I think.

Without boundaries, for me, there would be no serenity.  Things are a heck of a lot more serene now that I have them.  lol  But you are so right.  I had to learn all those things you posted about, too.  Having gone through the abuse, one does have to find what is good about oneself, but also accept that one needs to change, because one isn't living in that abuse anymore and has to learn new life skills/beliefs/strategies, and accept what has happened and then move on.  I think I am getting there, and I have learned to ask for help to get there, too.  _*pst, I know what you mean rdw, I'm a rescuer, too*_


At the beginning, when you were first posting, it sounded to me like you were saying boundaries were not a good thing, that they created problems, rather than solutions.  I didn't think that was what you meant, exactly.  I am glad I stuck around to get clarity.

Thank you for sharing your story with us.  I am sorry that you had that happen to you.  You seem like a very wonderful and kind person who has come a long way, "through the wound," to borrow a Jungian phrase.  I'm glad you made it to the other side.


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## Retired

Peter said:
			
		

> I had to learn to change everything around that was twisted and untrue in me (not others).
> From such self-honesty and changes in self, I was able to see the truth in others, including the insanity of my abusers.



  This statement is especially meaningful to me, as it reflects a similar reorientation process I had to make, to help me overcome some pain in my early life, though not as tragic as yours. 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom, Peter.


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## Darkside

Peter said:


> Thanks *Darkside* and *jollygreenjellybean.* Very good and valid responses.
> 
> Please let me tell you a bit about myself.
> 
> My childhood also contains sexual and physical abuse. Mentally, I was a nervous wreck. At school I was regarded as the class idiot. After I left home I became addict-alcoholic for 16 years. Throughout those years are volumes of stories and experiences I would not wish on my old enemies - not even my father.
> At the age of 34 I was close to alcoholic death from internal hemorrhaging. I had two options, continue on self-sabotage or recover. I opted for recovery.
> It was hard to change a lifetime of being a certain way. All my beliefs, philosophies of life, were twisted to support a life that just wanted to die. Recovery (to live) was foreign to me, and full of fear.
> But if I wanted to live, I had no choice but to face my fears. I had a lot of help, and still do, from self-help groups and people like myself in recovery - just like yourselves.
> 
> For me, the main part of recovery was to learn the truth behind my life experiences.
> First I had to trust and accept help from others.
> Then be ruthfully honest to myself, and to those I trusted. This helped me to accept myself fully (abused, alcoholic, using others for self gain, etc, etc.)
> Then I had to learn to change everything around that was twisted and untrue in me (not others).
> From such self-honesty and changes in self, I was able to see the truth in others, including the insanity of my abusers.
> Through similar identification of my own insanity, with others, I was able to forgive and let go of them. This took many years of recovery to fully understand and accept.
> I have been changing and improving ever since I was thirty four.
> 
> In between those 26 years of recovery I went back to school. Gained a pass into university. Gained a degree in counselling. worked as a counsellor for ever since.
> I know from experience that people can overcome adversities and change from a seemingly hopeless state of mind to one of good use to self and others.
> As a good friend of mine says: "My life is not the old one polished up, but a brand new one beyond my imaginings of my past."
> 
> We can change if we are willing to _work_ at it. (knowledge is the beginning of change, not the end).
> Change takes practice, simulation, experimentation, prayer, trusting, taking a risk, facing our fears, etc.
> If nothing changes, nothing changes. It is totally up to ourselves. Nobody can do it for us.
> If we want it bad enough, we will do the work that is required for change.
> 
> My serenity is my measure of growth (change) in my life.
> 
> ---------- Post Merged at 03:51 PM ---------- Previous Post was at 03:25 PM ----------
> 
> 
> I agree with you. I still have boundaries that are for self protection, especially for physical abuse.
> 
> Sorry to have assumed others would understand my posts. Please forgive my intrusion.



No problem to me ... I've enjoyed reading what you have to say because it speaks to a place or state of mind where I would like to be.

Honestly, I've rarely known serenity and spend a lot of my time trying to focus on being alert -- and probably on guard.

But for years I never accepted how on guard I was so I've spent a lot of time over the past 10 years learning to accept that life is ambiguous and confusing to me. I am beginning to sense that is just a first step. As Carl Rogers said, "when I accept the way I am the path to change becomes easier."


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## PrincessX

Peter said:


> Thanks *Darkside* and *jollygreenjellybean.* Very good and valid responses.
> 
> Sorry to have assumed others would understand my posts. Please forgive my intrusion.



Hello Peter, Sorry I was busy and could not follow the discussion on here earlier.

Let me tell you, to me your posts make perfect sense, they verbalize the things that I would like to say but I can still not dress up in words, because I am just arriving at them or aiming to arrive at them. I understand all your posts and they all sound true to me. Excellent perspectives coming from a very empowering personal philosophy. I really thank you for sharing them.


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## Peter

Hello all.

I have learnt some lessons on this thread, and I thank you all for partaking in my personal growth.

Hope we all can maintain our healthy boundaries, move forward, become less fearful, and experience more serenity.


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## GDPR

Peter,

Sorry that I got so upset and was rude to you.

I have been working so hard on setting/maintaining boundaries for the past 4 years in therapy and I became confused and upset because of the some of the things that were said here.

I think I misunderstood some things,and I apologize.


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## Darkside

> For me, the main part of recovery was to learn the truth behind my life experiences.
> First I had to trust and accept help from others.
> Then be ruthfully honest to myself, and to those I trusted. This helped  me to accept myself fully (abused, alcoholic, using others for self  gain, etc, etc.)
> Then I had to learn to change everything around that was twisted and untrue in me (not others).
> From such self-honesty and changes in self, I was able to see the truth in others, including the insanity of my abusers.
> Through similar identification of my own insanity, with others, I was  able to forgive and let go of them. This took many years of recovery to  fully understand and accept.
> I have been changing and improving ever since I was thirty four.



I wish I had done this at 34. I'm 60 years old and just starting down this path. I never became an alcoholic, but my self-delusion is probably equal to that of many alcoholics. 

One of the results of my childhood abuse is that I have episodes of explosive rage. Not often but every couple of years. This happened to me 2 years ago on a golf course. I blamed everyone else for days and tried to convince myself it was their fault - that they provoked me. But it damaged my relationship with 2 friends. One day I was thinking about it and I realized that I was viewing the episode like it was someone else - almost in the 3rd person. Then it dawned on me ... that was me acting out like that. Not someone else.

Suddenly I saw myself clearly and honestly - but without judgment. 

That changed me forever.

Doesn't mean it won't happen again ... but then it hasn't happened again so maybe it won't. But if it does I will immediately know it. No more denial.


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## PrincessX

Thank you Peter and all other people on here. I initially understood that Peter was trying to enrich the discussion by giving a new perspective on unhealthy boundaries, on boundaries based on unrealistic fears.
As he pointed out, there is also real fears, real threats, dangers that we have to protect ourselves from in order to survive. Interesting thread. I learned a lot from all of you


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## Peter

Lost_In_Thought said:


> Peter,
> 
> Sorry that I got so upset and was rude to you.
> 
> I have been working so hard on setting/maintaining boundaries for the past 4 years in therapy and I became confused and upset because of the some of the things that were said here.
> 
> I think I misunderstood some things,and I apologize.


Thank you Lost_In_thought. Your willingness to see something slightly different has altered you boundaries to accommodate further growth. This is how I have grown too.

Because you became confused and upset I have unknowingly crossed your boundaries, and for that I feel sorry, and apologize too.

Let's (you and me) accept our growing pains as we move forward.


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## rdw

So many times all of us are prone to believing that a post or thread is about us as individuals when it is not. It is about the human conditions and our weakness, insecurities and frailties as people. Rather than believing we are on our own,  we are surrounded by others who have the same concerns but we seem to isolate ourselves. My hope is to free myself from those self doubts.


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## Anahita

what you wrote made me so sad that i cried. all of it is correct about me. in some days i will be 43 but i am still a codependent person that havent been able to be mature adult and i am miserable and i dont have boundaries. and it is all my family especialy mum's fault. sigh. i have been very very depressed and recently suicidal on and off even though i have been doing therapy and taking meds for many years. 
i am so afraid of rejection that i ignore any boundary of mine and then i feel terrible or people do treat me really bad and i feel even worse afterwards. and it proves i am a bad person again, in my mind, if you know what i mean.i rarely can say no and that kills me because it always makes people disrespect me.
problem is i dont know what i want and who i am really. my psychiatrist and i are working on this codependency problem and he says i have made progress lately but i am so tired of my life that i just want not to exist. i just wrote him an email and tell him so. also in my country,Iran, it is even much worse when a woman have a loose boundary than others and i have much more problem.i am not a stupid person. i am educated and talented but my emotional health is a mess. i need to set my boundariesbut it is not easy at all. actually i think it is impossible for me and i said that to my doctor too.


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## Retired

> i need to set my boundaries but it is not easy at all. actually i think it is impossible for me



Anahita,

We are each to masters of our own lives, and nothing is impossible.  It may be difficult, especially when having to overcome some personal issues, but it sounds like you are receiving therapy and making progress.

What would be a typical situation in your life where you feel that your boundaries are being violated?


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## Anahita

for example today my efriend of 16 years, started a fight with me and insulted me and told very bad things to me just because i told him that i went to a party 2 weeks ago with some girls and guys and had a good time. he told claimed he was angry because he was worried about me because i am very vulnerable and they may hurt me( with is so stupid because we were 18 people there!) and anyway he didnt have right to insult me for that. but you know what i did? i didnt show how much i was angry of that much insult and that i was  thinking it was not his business and instead i tried to calm him down and asked if i can do anything to make him feel better and tried to explain there was nothing to worry and that i love him. sigh.... now, i hate myself... i cry sooooooooooooooooooooooo much..... i hate myself sooooooooooooooooooooooo much..... and this anger is suffocating me. i know i didnt want to lose him but why should i want him in the first place??????? he told me: your dad is lucky that is not here( my dad passed away some years ago) to see your behaviour!..... as if i am a whore!....and funny is one of my problems i discuss with my psychiatrist is not having sex at all !!!!!!!.....
now i am suicidal and i think i have right to be like this. i have no respect for myself. i let him treat me like...
i dont really know how to respect myself and how to be who i am and how to show my true feelings . it seems too scary.


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