# Family Problems



## heatherly (Jan 5, 2012)

This is actually my problem, not theirs. I tend to forgive too easily because I have been in religions that have told me to forgive and let go, but then I am always in a bad place because I keep getting dumped on.

The latest is that my oldest sister and her daughter come to visit me twice a year, and when they come they fight in public or in my home, and even my husband has to listen to it. The last time they visited we went to a craft fair, and my niece brought her boyfriend. She proceeded for the first time to scold me, telling me to get away from the food booth. This is her screaming at me so everyone can hear. Then she decided that my sister and I were too slow so she had her boyfriend did the fair alone. Next we are coming home, and she is driving. Her boyfriend is in the front seat. She is playing with her GPS, her boyfriend is teasing her, taking photos, and they are playing with his laptop. She almost missed a curve and a truck was coming. Her mother told her to watch the road, and she told her to close her eyes. I sat there saying nothing. Then they got into a cussing fight, and I kept telling them to stop talking. Then at the restaurant she is trying to give the waitress the bill, but the waitress doesn't see her, so I said, hand it to me, I will give it to her, so she tells me that I am impatient, again, others can hear. I stood up for myself, telling her there was no call for it.

So they get home after their visit, and she emails me that she won't be coming much anymore, and that her mom treats her like a child. I used that an an in to tell her that she does the same, and we go back and forth with my telling her that I was afraid of her driving, and she should not be multitasking. Soon she is telling me that she can quit talking to me like she did my older brother, but it was the other way around. Then she puts down my husband big time, and so I finally said, You are not welcome here ever again, and I am blocking your emails. Before I could get them blocked she told me that she was glad that there was karma because what goes around comes around.

So now I have two sisters that think I should let it go. Her mother said, Love it never have to say you are sorry. Well, I never loved my niece because she is abusive, not that her mother isn't. My other sister had to remind me that my mother quit talking to our father's sister because his sister put him down to her. This implies to me that I am now like my mother, and we don't want to be like she was.

Okay, so they are able to get me to feel guilty for not speaking to my niece. One of my friends said that my sisters always get me to cave in. I rather think that it is my religious views that do this. I have a long history of being told to forgive. It is worse if a friend says that they are sorry and so I feel sorry for them and forgive them just to be dumped on again. But even before I became religious I was like this, because I always felt sorry for my dad because Mom left him, and yet he was abusive, beat her up and cheated on her. So it could be a stupid soft heart that I have.

Also, because I was shunned by the Jehovah's Witnesses for doing wrong, and because it was so painful, I promised myself I would never shun anyone ever again. Another friend of mine said that this was not the same thing, but I didn't understand why not? 

My brother's wife is trying to help me. They will not speak to my niece saying she is very toxic.

A Christian friend of mine said that she believes in forgiving her and allowing her to visit. I am not a Christian, left that long ago. I tried Buddhism, and their view was to not let what they say bother me. I am no longer Buddhist either. This belief of not complaining that someone has hurt you doesn't set right with me. It smacks of allowing people to abuse you.

I need to find a way to stop my own behavior of forgiving and letting a person back into my life. I really don't want to ever see my niece again, and at least she is not the type to ever say she is sorry, hopefully. Her mom and she fight and neither ever say they are sorry.

Is there a book I can read? Or something that someone can say to help?


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 5, 2012)

You can forgive someone and love them and still not allow them back into your life.  If they are toxic and make your life hell, I agree, that NOBODY needs to keep allowing this abuse.  You aren't doing anything wrong.  Your are protecting yourself and your family (for example, you wouldn't have your sister driving again, because what if she gotten into an accident and everyone was killed, just because of her selfish behaviour?)... 

If you are getting pressure from everyone to forgive, tell them you have, but you can't forget, and you have to stop being around these people.  How is it against God if you are protecting yourself and your family from hurtful things?  Usually people in a dysfunctional family think dysfunction is normal and that "Normal" is dysfunctional.  If you are trying to create some normalcy in a dysfunctional situation, you will naturally feel some backlash.

The other thing you can do, is if you DO decide to try again with these people (personally I would not), then you must lay down some boundaries before you meet.  

- you will not yell at me or anyone in my family in public OR in private.  It's my home and my family, and if you can't find it in yourself to respect us, you are not welcome with us.  You will be told to leave, or we will leave if we are not at our home.

- if you are driving, and you can't keep your attention on the road where it should be, and you are endangering myself and my family, we will not have rides with you anymore.  We will drive in separate vehicles.  

Hope this helps...  I have been raised in some dysfunction and my heart goes out to you.  I no longer speak to my parents or one of my brothers, and for the most part my conscience is completely clear.  I don't let anyone try to sway me with guilt because that means I am letting them manipulate me.  It sounds to me like your family knows exactly what buttons to push to get you to comply with what they think is the correct course of action, but their course of action is to continue being dysfunctional.  In my opinion.   That's what it was like in our family.  "You have to forgive and forget because that's what families do."  Hell, no, I say!  lol


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## heatherly (Jan 5, 2012)

Thank you very much jollygreenbean. I am going to print your answer out and keep it. 

How it is against God? I always remember the scripture to "forgive 70 times 70." I believe I have been brainwashed by religion. And yet I don't believe in the God of the Bible. Go figure. What I actually do believe in is not hurting others, but sometimes you have to put your foot down and walk away; it isn't easy.

You are correct, my family doesn't see that their behavior is abnormal but instead, they see it as ery normal. They would not change even if I gave them those ultimatums; instead they would say, then we are not coming if that is the way you feel about us.

There was a time, and I may have posted it here, that I went to my mother's funeral, and both of my sisters and that niece dumped on me, accusing me of stealing $40 of Mom's money, and I have always felt stealing from a parent was the worse you can do; maybe it isn't. I was upset, and one of my sisters became upset, and my other sister asked me to apologize to her because she was upset. Wow! I apologized and said, I didn't take the money though, and my sister snickered at me saying, we love you anyway. that is the short version. I went to a Buddhist nun to talk about it, and she told me how important family is and that I should forgive them. Bad advice but I took it, and all it did was make them think that I took the money or I wouldn't have apologized. And this was a funeral that I didn't wish to attend because my mother was abusive, but again a religious leader said I should go. When she died I felt relieved that I would not have to call her and take her abuse weekly, and then my sisters stepped in her place very conveniently. I have now sworn off funerals. 

Yes, they know the right buttons to push. I can't allow it anymore. 

Thanks again.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 5, 2012)

Yeah, but you _are _forgiving them (when you feel the time is right), you are just protecting yourself from letting them do things to you over and over. 

Protecting yourself and your family by putting down healthy boundaries and if those boundaries are crossed then there are circumstances...

It would be like if you were attacked by someone and they were put in jail.  You can forgive them, but you wouldn't go and pay their bond/bail and let them mug you again.  People in the world do things and their are consequences for their actions (or should be).  If it wasn't family would you hang around with these people?  Ever?  Contrary to popular belief, you can choose who you want to hang out with.  And it doesn't have to include family.

If someone in the family did something to your child or husband, would you forgive them and let them keep doing the same abuse over and over?  To these people, it seems to me, "forgiveness" is an excuse to not have to deal with consequences for their actions.  I feel real forgiveness is supposed to allow the person who transgressed against you to come back to you, but they have to do something on their side, not just keep doing the same thing to you over and over.  Relationships are a two-way street.  Why do YOU have to make all the compromises and do everything to make these people welcome in your lives, but all they do is abuse you and your family?   To be forgiven implies that the person asking for forgiveness has apologized and endeavors to try to better themselves and avoid doing what they did to need to receive forgiveness in the first place.  

Like I said, they seem to think that forgiveness removes any need to change their behaviour or to show their love to you by trying to treat you fairly...  If you don't mind I will send you some links to your private messages mailbox...  Just got to find them first...


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## heatherly (Jan 5, 2012)

I have always said that if they were not my family, they would not be my friend or even in my life. 

I wouldn't allow them to abuse my child or husband, and yet allowing them to argue in our home is allowing them to abuse my husband and myself. And yes, they do not wish to have any consequences. That makes more sense to forgive only if they have changed. Of course, I doubt if I can forgive my niece for putting down my husband. I should feel the same way about myself. 

I really like what you said here: _Relationships are a two-way street.  Why do YOU have to make all the  compromises and do everything to make these people welcome in your  lives, but all they do is abuse you and your family?   To be forgiven  implies that the person asking for forgiveness has apologized and  endeavors to try to better themselves and avoid doing what they did to  need to receive forgiveness in the first place.  _

Yes, please send me some links, if not here in my private message box.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 5, 2012)

Only reason I don't want to post them is they might be interpreted as "diagnosing" which I am not trying to do.  I have found several links of different sources and sent them to you...  Some of my favourite quotes:

"Yet, there is a difference between forgiveness and excusing; forgiveness is not excusing someone for hurting you. Forgiveness is not choosing to ignore a mistake that someone made or deciding to reconcile an offense that pained us. Forgiveness is not giving up or accepting ones behavior toward us when it was clearly wrong or immoral.  Forgiveness does not give the permission to continue the action that hurts us.  Forgiveness does not necessarily mean that there must be complete reconciliation in every situation."  
                        Posted 21st September, 2011 by Tim Thurman



Forgive or Excuse? -- for reprints of this tract, contact the Order of St. Luke at Order of St. Luke; P O Box 13701; San Antonio, Texas 78213
"A lot of the people I have met believe that to forgive someone means to excuse what they have done, and to continue to relate to them in some sentimental sort of love. "Forgive and forget" is the phrase that is often used. The problem is that when we forget, we will have to forgive again until we take seriously the fact that the one we forgive is capable of the behavior that made us angry in the first place.

I recall hearing the Lord say one day, "Forgiveness is the elasticity of my love. It is what enables you to stretch to love a person who has broken the image in which you had held them." It is not simply to excuse someone who made a mistake. It is the decision to love someone the way they have shown themselves to be, rather than the way you thought they were.
To excuse someone implies that they could have done better if they had tried harder. The truth is that anyone will choose to do what they believe will best fulfill their lives at any given moment. That applies as well to the murderer as to the saint. We may change our belief system tomorrow; but we will use the one we hold at the moment of decision.
To forgive means to recognize that reality and accept the person as is. It may well mean that you report a person to the legal authorities when you forgive them. It does not mean that you exonerate them. It means that you forgive them and follow forgiveness with love."



"When you give away your forgiveness without the perpetrator going through _all_  four stages (confession, contrition, restitution and repentance) you  show that your forgiveness is a false form of it and not something to be  desired.  Say you approach someone whom you know has injured you, and  they deny they ever did it.  They adamantly refuse to acknowledge their  debt to you.  Now lets say you go ahead and tell them that you forgive  them anyway.  Here is what you have accomplished.  You've clearly  indicated that you think so little of yourself that you don't really  expect that you deserve any restitution when someone takes from you.   What you call forgiveness is a cheap imitation.  Now you've insured that  the perpetrator is actually rewarded for taking from you.  He came out  ahead!"  Monday, July 16, 2007 - Anna Valerious


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## heatherly (Jan 5, 2012)

I can do the diagnosis myself with what I have found and put in bold how my family is. Teehee.



> *Symptoms of Narcissistic Personality*
> 
> Symptoms of this disorder include, but are not limited to:
> 
> ...



Other than what I have put in bold I can't really say.

I  have printed out all the articles that you gave to me to read.

I can't believe how helpful you have been and am so grateful, especially to get this from a Christian view as well. You and these articles are so reasonable. 

I always believed that forgive is to forget, and then I forget and they do it over and over. The worse case of that was when I was a Jehovah's Witness and had a friend who I was always upset with because she would back stab me and people would tell me. I would quit talking to her, she would call, I would forgive. I went to the minister and he said, she has emotional problems and has no friends. Please forgive her." I never forgot that nor the fact that a year or more later she slept with my husband, now ex. Had she not moved, I would probably have forgiven her again.



> _
> "When you give away your forgiveness without the perpetrator going through all   four stages (confession, contrition, restitution and repentance) you   show that your forgiveness is a false form of it and not something to be   desired.  Say you approach someone whom you know has injured you, and   they deny they ever did it.  They adamantly refuse to acknowledge their   debt to you.  Now lets say you go ahead and tell them that you forgive   them anyway.  Here is what you have accomplished.  You've clearly   indicated that you think so little of yourself that you don't really   expect that you deserve any restitution when someone takes from you.    What you call forgiveness is a cheap imitation.  Now you've insured that   the perpetrator is actually rewarded for taking from you.  He came out   ahead!"  Monday, July 16, 2007 - Anna Valerious
> 
> _


This is what happened in my family at the funeral when I forgave. I went to a psychologist and talked with her, but I didn't find her effective. She said, They will never admit it and since you want them in your life you have to let it go. I have never let it go, and all I get out of them is I didn't think you took the money, but I am sorry it happened. I can't undo it type of answer.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 5, 2012)

Well, you are always welcome to speak to another therapist.  I would always recommend (and several qualified people in this Forum would also) that you never attempt to self-diagnose either... Maybe on your search you could specifically request from them that you are looking for someone who specializes in family dynamics, personality disorders, etc...  

Yes, I think it is basically people interpret "Forgiveness" as something other than what it really is.  That is why I found those articles...  They clarified the meaning and it certainly changes perspective a lot.


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## heatherly (Jan 5, 2012)

I live in a very small community, and the only other therapist here is a psychiatrist, and I have not tried him. But I think what you have given me has been all the help I will need. I will read it over and over until it is clearly in my mind, and I am reprogrammed, so to speak. The articles you sent really do clarify the meaning of forgiveness.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 8, 2012)

> I went to the minister and he said, she has emotional problems and has  no friends. Please forgive her." I never forgot that nor the fact that a  year or more later she slept with my husband, now ex. Had she not  moved, I would probably have forgiven her again.



Wow, I am really sorry to hear that happened!  8(  That blows!

Next time someone tells you to forgive a chronically back-stabbing, home-wrecking, emotional vampire, now you know you _can_ forgive them (let go of all your negative feelings) - because you'll never speak or come into contact with them ever again and you'll keep them out of your life to be safe and healthy!!


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## heatherly (Jan 8, 2012)

You are so right, I know better now.

The therapist here that I went to see, because I was upset with a friend who dumped me because I had told her that she had said things that hurt me, wasn't that great of a therapist. It was she who also said that my family would never say that they were sorry, so if I wanted to have them in my life, I had to let their accusations of my stealing money at the funeral go. And when I told her about my niece and my guilt over telling her she was no longer welcome in my home, she said to say I am sorry so I won't feel the guilt. I will never go back to her as her advice was really rotten and not thought out. She has no skills. And even the minister and the Buddhist nun years ago gave bad advice. But I don't feel that I need therapy, as I am basically a happy person who just needed the right tools, and gratefully, you gave them to me. Again, thanks. 

I have noticed that my sister whose daughter I rejected is having a hard time talking to me now. I can tell she is upset, but I don't care. She is just like her daughter. The other sister who was at the funeral was the one who first accused me of stealing, and at least she is in therapy and well, is a peacemaker. Perhaps she isn't getting the right help either. She has never admitted to accusing me but has spent time apologizing for hurting me. I give her credit for that, and I sent her the article, Forgiveness from Narcissists Suck. She doesn't seem to wish to deal with it yet. Whenever I have talked with her in the past about having problems with certain people, I could tell that she felt I had the problem, not them. She has always forgiven people and keeps getting dumped on as well. But I have a lot of friends in my life who have never given me problems in all the years I have known them, and those I cherish.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 8, 2012)

Ugh, I definitely would take the time to get yourself another therapist of some kind.  Maybe the one you had can refer you to someone who has experience with family/relationship counseling or knows something about personality disorders, or dysfunctional dynamics in families...  

This isn't always 100% accurate (we've had at least one specialist that got trashed and actually he was very very nice) but you could check with this tool for how the patients and clients of various doctors rate....  Find a Doctor or Dentist | RateMDs.com  Maybe you could find someone in your area.


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## heatherly (Jan 8, 2012)

hi, i am not suffering anymore over this and so see no reason to find a doctor, but we only have one other in town, a male psychiatrist. going out of town is not something i can do. if i were suffering i would probably try the other one. but thanks so much. i just needed to get over guilt and learn everything you taught me.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 8, 2012)

OK, well that is good to know.  I certainly hope you can move on and can weather the future storms on your own.

Fair enough, what I suggested could just be something to keep in mind.  Sort of like keeping handy an extra set of keys or a packet of gum in your pocket.  Or a towel (reference to Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy).

Only sayin' so because I thought I was done a few years ago, and after a stressful 2010/2011 I decided I better come and see him again.  I wanted so badly for me to be "normal" and was so determined to try to move on all by myself that I kind of put off going back when I probably should have gone back 6 months before I finally actually did.  (d'oh)

My therapist said it's because some of these problems are kind of like dirty pots.  You _think_ you've cleaned them out thoroughly but once they've dried out a bit, you notice they still need a bit more cleaning done.   I'd go for the onion analogy, but I'd probably get sued by Shrek.


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## heatherly (Jan 9, 2012)

I understand what you are saying. My life is very simple when my sisters are not involved in it. I am 69 years old and the one with the daugher is 77. I only began having problems with them when they visited twice a year, and that will not be occuring anymore. I had problems with one woman whom I met here when we first moved to Oklahoma, and she is no longer in my life, but because she was my best friend it was difficult to understand why we had a falling out. Since then my newest friend, who was once her friend, first told me of the problems they had, and it was the same as I had with her. The validation really helped.

It is hard to even think of asking my insurance company to pay for therapy when I am not depressed, when my life is happy, and when my husband and I get along perfectly. If something ever happened to him, I would go to the only psychiatrist in town for a brief time if needed. 

Being that my family is far from me, I have been able to distance myself. I will not make visits to them, not even for funerals. If my oldest sister wants to visit she will have to fly in, but if we have problems, that is the last time I will see her. I keep our phone conversations superficial. (She was not the one driving, her daugher was. We both have blindness in one eye and find it hard to dirve except close to home.)

I majored in psychology in college (forgot a lot), and was in therapy for severe depression but used positive thinking to cure myself after 13 years of misery. I have not been depressed since, but I have been upset with family and that ex friend. And at least I have a lot of women friends, all the way back from grammar school, to college, to recent times whom I have never faught with because there was no need. We all still talk via phone since distance makes it impossible. Although one I knew at the age of 8 came to visit me this summer.


If I were to be in therapy it would have to be via phone and my medicare/champ va would have to pay for it. I doubt if it would. 
But I will not return to the psychologist here because I know what a good female psychologist is like. I had one tell me many years ago that I didn't have problems, it was the people in my life causing them. At that time it was not my sisters, but a psychiatrist that I worked for, being his office manager, and a phychiatrist that I was seeing. I really don't have a high opinion of psychiatrists having had seen so many different ones when I lived in Berkeley. But the woman psychologist was every intelligent.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 9, 2012)

lol  Awesome!

I'm 41, and I don't have a psychology degree although I took a class in high school and also took some at university.   I have a teaching degree!  But I don't teach anymore, I work at a call centre as support for internet and cell phones (used to work in landline phone support and tv support, too)...

I was always interested in psychology.  When I was younger, I would read my mom's Carl Jung books when she took some psychology courses so she could be a psych nurse.  She was also an registered nurse, so I had some fun looking at all the stuff in her medical encyclopedias, too.   Then when I was older, I bought some of my own.  I took an exam for university from the computer (not a real one), and without studying much got about 50%.  But I only took it one time, so it might have been lucky.  If I had done three tests, I probably would have failed 2...  Who knows...  Anyways, I probably don't know enough about statistics and numbers and brain chemistry, but I know vaguely about them.  lol

Naturally, I have been reading up on and surfing the net regarding Narcissistic Personality Disorder, that's for sure...  Not to mention a few other issues that run in our family...  I'm more of a self-taught kind of person...  I find people and mental illness and social behaviours etc fascinating.  I have weird hobbies!  lol



> i just needed to get over guilt and learn everything you taught me.


 I don't like to take _that_ much credit!! 
I just felt a bit uncomfortable and surprised that you thought I cured you or gave you all the answers or something, but now I see you are likely able to take care of yourself just fine, especially with your experience and a whole psychology major!  Hence the reason I kept suggesting you get a second and more informed opinion (don't worry I won't suggest it anymore)!!    8)


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## heatherly (Jan 9, 2012)

I don't mean to imply that you cured me, but what you gave to me opened my eyes and allowed me to rid myself of guilt. i am grateful for that. my younger sister and i are talking about these things, and she feels bad that i am still hurt over the funeral and doesn't know what i need to solve it even with my other sister. i said, i would like her to tell me that she did believe that i took the money instead of denying it and to then apologize. in her immediate family they are always saying, get over it. i don't see her as being able to do that. and this sister i talked to only feels bad about the whole thing. i am sure my other sister does as well, but she doesn't understand why it still bothers me after all these years, 7 years i believe.

you may not be a psychologist or psychiatrist, but you do know how to present the material that you have found, and it helped me a lot. after several courses in psychology i became bored and change majors, and then i became bored with the next major and changed again. 12 years of college with no degree, and what i have learned i have not remembered much of.

i see what you mean about a second opinion, which is to see if my family really is narcissistic. for me it doesn't matter that much, what matters is that i understand some of their behavior and that i realize what forgiveness means. i had been doing it all wrong. the article on "forgiveness" on narcisstic's suck was the best of the bunch, and getting a christian view point really helped. why, i don't know, since i am no longer a christian.

Well, you must have been a good teacher because you teach well. you know how to obtain good information and present it. keep up the good work.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 9, 2012)

> you may not be a psychologist or psychiatrist, but you do know how to  present the material that you have found, and it helped me a lot. after  several courses in psychology i became bored and change majors, and then  i became bored with the next major and changed again. 12 years of  college with no degree, and what i have learned i have not remembered  much of.



lol  Thanks very much, heatherly!  8D

I think that's why I like helping customers with their phones and internet:  I teach them how to use those devices and how to troubleshoot them.  The trick is imagining what they are looking at (although it helps that I either have a phone to play with or I can look at a help document with screenshots of what they are looking at)...  And it also helps to kind of have a bit of intuition...   The only thing I lack is a computer certificate or technical degree...  Starting to think about trying to get another job in the same company...  I would shoot for psychologist or counselor, but they have the head psychology dude, and then they have 2 ladies in another city who also help...  And they also refer out to other psychologists/psychiatrists...  

I've been through a lot in the last year and a half, so I'm just starting to feel like myself again.  I think I was a bit depressed because I just wanted to hide from the world for a while.  Long story!  Short version:  I seem to be coming out of my emotional stupor.

Hopefully soon I'll have as much pep and vigor as you do and I'll be ready to maybe take some courses...


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## heatherly (Jan 10, 2012)

May I ask what is happening in your family and how you have been handling it?


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 10, 2012)

Hey there,

Sure...  I've posted a lot in the Narcissistic section, and here's a bit of a hint of what went on this year in May: http://forum.psychlinks.ca/narcissi...der/26374-happy-narcissistic-mothers-day.html

And also down where my signature is, you can see a link to a webpage. I was learning a lot and dealing with a lot back in the spring/summer of 2010 because my mom and her real estate and me being on title with her and my dad on a property.  They were moving three provinces away and I REALLY didn't want to have my name left on the title of that house.  I had to "go behind their backs" and talk to a real estate lawyer, because either my mom was completely off her rocker, or just outright lying to me.  I am fairly certain she was lying.  She claimed she was told the information by some real estate accountant or broker or something...  Mind you one of the people who worked for her quit because my mom was always trying to justify and manipulate the system so she could avoid reporting income (which is why she was audited twice by Revenue Canada)...

But if you check out those links you'll see what I'm talking about!  lol


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## heatherly (Jan 11, 2012)

Thank you. I will check them out, and I didn't know there was a Narcissistic forum.

---------- Post added January 11th, 2012 at 11:25 AM ---------- Previous post was January 10th, 2012 at 11:57 AM ----------


Jolly, I could not help myself and ended up emailing my sister who when I sent her the article on forgiveness didn't read it but talked to my oldest sister about my still being upset over the funeral, and neither of them understanding why I am not over it. This is what I wrote:


hi,

it seems that you don't quite understand why i can't get over the funeral either. had you read that article i sent you would understand part of the reason. it is bascially that you and (name removed) have lied by saying that you don't recall ever thinking i took the money, when in fact you know you believed this. why tell jerry that i was a clyptomaniac if you didn't believe i took the money. but also, you both accused me of something that i consider to be horrible, stealing from mom. it was attacking me in the worse way and telling our bother about it and the kids. i stay away from family as much as i can, even from that brother (name had been removed) because i really don't know what anyone really thinks of me, which is why i have often thought to get a lie detector test, but then a psychologist said, they would just believe that you were able to pass it, so don't bother. so no, i will always be friendly to my family, but i will always feel hurt because no one cares enough to admit their mistakes and just wants me to "get over it." never will.

love,


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 11, 2012)

Fair enough.  That's odd that they pretend they didn't accuse you in the first place, that's for sure.  It's like the Narcissistic amnesia.  Gaslighting is another phrase for it.  That word came out because of a play; basically when you gaslight someone, you MOSTLY use the truth, but you just slightly change it.  So every detail except one might be different.  Either that or outright stubbornly denying things over and over.  Basically they make you start to doubt what you actually saw or experienced.  It sounds like you have a terrific memory and you're sharp and you must have a relatively healthy self esteem, so these tricks didn't work with you.  You don't doubt yourself even if someone tells you over and over that you should.   Gaslight (1944) - IMDb


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## heatherly (Jan 12, 2012)

It helps that my oldest brother and his wife stood up for me and reminded me that they saw me packing up the car, and I told them I was leaving, and they walked into the house and the buzz was that I took Mom's money. At which point they all got into a fight over it with my brother and his wife leaving. He stood up for me for which I am eternally grateful. But yes, they wanted me to believe that I was the one who just thought that they thought that I took the money, which I know differently. I remember every horrible word. When you are being accused you really remember things because it cuts you. That is gaslighting, another term I forgot even though I saw the movie, which was a good movie. Those tricks don't work on me in this case. The other exfriend I had been friends with a year ago tried the same thing by denying that she ever said the things that I said she said, and she would do this right after saying them, and then she said that I twisted everything. Now she had me going for a while, and that is why I went to the psychologist, which didn't help much and I came on here with it which helped, but then making friends with an ex friend of hers (just wo months ago)really helped because she had the same issues with her. So gaslighting can work on me a little. And I think this ex friend made me doubt myself more than anyone. She was really crazy making. I hate that we both go to the Unitarian church and that she smiles and hugs me now, but I try to move away from her and not run into her. My other friend who goes there says she tries to remain nice to her so she won't talk about her like she did me, and I said, she talked about you to me anyway.

---------- Post added January 12th, 2012 at 10:44 AM ---------- Previous post was January 11th, 2012 at 11:52 AM ----------

Here is my answer from my sister on that email I sent:

"I'm sorry I thoght our chat was good. I guess I left you feeling badly. I don't recall saying that to you nor do I feel that.I understand completely.  and truely."

She won't read the article, won't discuss, won't admit anything.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 12, 2012)

Wow, talk about refusing to see reality and constructing history herself... lol


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## heatherly (Jan 13, 2012)

I wrote her again, and she said this:_ hi sis... __I am sorry you are going thru so much pain.  I will try to find my letter with my feelings from that day._
_I know I must have it somewhere deep in my computer_
_but I will have to wait a few days.  I am a mess over waiting for my results._
_Hugs you tight

_It wasn't just two days ago that she and I sister were disgusting this issue together, but she is putting me off now with this waiting for results still. Her notes never ever had her admitting to believing I took the money. So I wrote both my sisters a long letter and mailed it yesterday. I do not expect them to ever admit that they harmed me. Part of me wonders if bringing up a 7 year old issue is wise but another part of me says that this has always been between us and more than likely always will.

This is what I wrote with names changed:

_Itseems that it is very easy for you both to talk about my still being upset overwhat happened at Mom’s funeral than you are to talk about it with me. So I willtalk about it with you both here:

Iremember it like it was yesterday. Jean, Lettie, and I were in the car goingto San Luis to pick up my VW bug. Cilla called and asked Jean if she knewwhat happened to the $40 of Mom’s, and Jean said that it was all in theenvelope last night. Then I heard Jean say to you, “I know that Lettie didn’t takeit and neither did the maid.” That left me, didn’t  it?

Iget home, and the issue continues, and I begin making jokes due to beinguncomfortable because I can hear that I am being accused, and then all thesudden Cilla tells Sandy (Jean's daughter) and Jean that I am a shoplifter. I sat there inshock to think that my sister would reveal a secret that we had several yearsago when I lived in Berkeley and used to shoplift, but now the secret wasrevealed and it was stated as if I still shoplifted. 

Itwas obvious that Sandy believed that I took the money because when I woke upthat morning when she arrived, she was cold towards me. And as things went on,Jean, you made it clear that you thought I took the money too, and my beingupset with you over this made you upset as well, and Cilla came to me and said,“You need to apologize to Jean because she is hurt.” I was shocked again.What did I have to apologize for? What did I do except to stand up for myself.  But Jean’s feelings were more importantthan my own. But like a fool I apologized, and then I said to you, Jean,“But I want you to know that I did not take the money,” and you, Jean,  just snickered and said, “We have a member inour family that stole from us and we still love them,” meaning that in spite ofmy stealing I was still loved. 

Andthen I talk to John (my younger brother), and he said that Cilla told him that I was akleptomaniac. 

Andyet you both deny ever believing that I ever took the money, and as Sandy oncesaid to me, “Get over it. We still love you.” _

Itried often to get over it, but neither of you understand what it meant to me.I have told you why it bothered me and still does, but you don’t listen anddon’t care.  You only think about yourselfand covered up your part in it. All you want to do is deny that you felt I tookthe money. And then to realize that all of John's kids think I took it aswell. How humiliating! (When my brother walked into the house after I packed and left it was John's kids that ran up to him and said that I took Mom's money.)

Iwas stupid to have ever given in when I wrote that first letter to the both ofyou saying, “If this is what you think of me, then I want no part of either ofyou.” To think that you believed the maid and Lettie over your own sister, tothink that you believed that I would steal Mom's money, especially sinceshe was dead. 

Ilearned something in psychology the other day, and that is this:

*When you give away your forgiveness withoutthe perpetrator going through all four stages (confession, contrition,restitution and repentance) you show that your forgiveness is a false form ofit and not something to be desired. Say you approach someone whom you know hasinjured you, and they deny they ever did it. They adamantly refuse toacknowledge their debt to you. Now let’s say you go ahead and tell them thatyou forgive them anyway. Here is what you have accomplished. You've clearlyindicated that you think so little of yourself that you don't really expectthat you deserve any restitution when someone takes from you. What you callforgiveness is a cheap imitation. Now you've insured that the perpetrator isactually rewarded for taking from you. He came out ahead!

*
Ihave even thought this my own self over the years, that I had tried my best toforgive you all because I thought it was the right thing to do, but how thisnow probably caused my family to believe that since I gave in so easily, I mustbe guilty. 

Youboth have a debt to me. If you can’t admit that you thought I took the money,then you are doing me wrong, and you have been doing me wrong for 7 years. Iknow you believed I took the money, and to say otherwise is to say that I am crazy,and the technique you are using is called “gaslighting.” (Gaslighting “is a formof psychological abuse in which false information is presented to the victim,making them doubt their own memory and perception.”)

Sonot only did you both do me a disservice by accusing me of thief, but you alsoadded insult to injury by gaslighting me afterwards. 

Idon’t expect that either of you will ever admit what you have done to me, butdon’t expect that this will all blow over, and I will allow you back into mylife unless you went through the four stages as presented in the red coloredparagraph. And I would have to feel deep within that you really meant it.

Jean,love is “not ever having to say you are sorry.” Love is being sorry for hurtingothers and trying your best to never do it again.  You both have said you are sorry, but I reallyfelt that you were just trying to appease me so things can go on as normalbetween us all.

Andhere is more of what I have learned:

*Narcissists are notorious cheats in theforgiveness transaction. You may get them to admit that they wrongedyou, but do not let yourself think that means you now owe them yourforgiveness. There are three more steps. They rarely may get to the secondpart...that of showing what appears to be sorrow for what they've done.* But they will lie, cheat and wiggle to avoid the next two veryimportant parts of the forgiveness transaction. Do not be snookered by a cheat.

*Your gift of forgiveness is valuable and you shouldn't mark downthe price to fire sale prices. By the way, your forgiveness is never owed toanyone. True forgiveness is always a gift. A gift must be freely offered. Extortion isnot a way to legitimately gain it. If you don't want to give it, that is yourchoice. You must be satisfied that the person who wronged you is serious intheir efforts to rectify their wrong. If you are not satisfied, you do notowe them your forgiveness. As soon as someone says you owe them forgivenessyou have absolute proof that person is not genuinely repentant. Or you have anosy holier-than-thou persecuting you from the sidelines. Either way, don't cowto the pressure.

Jeanyou also often wonder why I don’t want to be with family at a reunion, besides justnot wanting to make the trip. I had enough of family at the funeral. I believethat John and his family think I took the money, and I believe you bothbelieve it, as well does Sandy.*


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 13, 2012)

Well, there you are. 

You've spelled it out very clearly.  If they still deny it, I suppose you have the choice to accept them for who they are and that they won't change and take it from there...

That's a lot of proof (especially the kids, because they repeat stuff their parents say)...  Hey if you were ever a witness to a crime, you would be a star witness!!!  lol


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## heatherly (Jan 13, 2012)

It is so hard to know the right thing to do, even to know if I should have brought it up again. But so often in my family I am hurt over other things that are said, such as if I talk politics with my sister Jean and she doesn't like what I say, she begins to attack me personally like Mom did. As if not accepting her beliefs was attacking her personally, so she attacks me personally. 

My family will let it go. Jean will not answer; instead she will be upset, and then Cilla will be upset with me for upsetting her and begin denying again. I left out other things in the letter, like asking Jean why would I not steal the entire $80. And she said, "Because you thought we wouldn't notice if you only took $40." How did I even know the money was in some dresser? How did I know that they even knew about it? But I didn't ask them those questions.

So I may be without sisters because I don't feel like giving in again. If they want me in their life they can fess up instead of denying it all.

---------- Post added at 12:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 AM ----------

Since I can't edit the post I made above. I talked abuot this with my husband and gave him the article, Forgiveness. Here is what he said besides telling me that they are too self centered to apologize and don't expect anything: 



> He said that I have always forgiven them and people in my life without asking them to to admit their wrong and apologize, and so I have been dumped on again and again. I told him what was happening and that I wrote a letter to Jean and Cilla, but that I don't expect them to ever admit their wrong. We talked about how when Mom and my step dad quit talking to me how Cilla and Jean said I was at fault. My husband said that my older brother is the only normal one in the family and has stood up for me.



and I sent a copy to my sister-in-law telling her giving her the letter and telling her what my husband said and how she said that her husband is the normal one in the family who always stood up for me and she wrote:



> "You did a GREAT GREAT job with this. So well written!!  HUG HUG!  Did you send as a written postal letter or email?  If you sent it as email, you might want to resend as postal mail- studies show postal mail is read in more depth by some people because it is in print and in their hands.
> 
> Would be interested in any response you get (if any).  I truly  believe they not will get it. But this is their loss.



*Your husband is RIGHT ON!  And obviously we agree with him since this is what we have said all along. sure wish we could get to know him better.
*
all of this support has really helped.


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## heatherly (Jan 15, 2012)

My sister Jean just called and was in tears. Said she got my letter and then admitted to believing that I took the money and said if she had been blammed she may have never spoken to the family again. I thanked her and said that this meant all the world to me to have her admit and say she is sorry. The other sister said she has to look at her notes and will get back with me.


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## heatherly (Jan 18, 2012)

I had hoped this would all get settled, but I really don't think my sister Jean believes that I didn't take the money, and my other sister insists that she never thought I did. I wrote her: Then why did you tell our brother that I was a kleptomaniac, why did you tell me in front of Jean and Sandy that I was, Why when I packed and left the house, you didn't come to tell me that you believed me? why did you give Mom's necklaces to all but me and then say there are no more left, and why when i wrote you that I didn't want to have anyone in my life (this after the funeral) who thought this ill of me, you never answered? 

and so all she wrote was: I_ tried so hard to fix it then. And couldn't. And I can't now. I was sorry then and still am. my feeling s of what happened has never waivered._ 

What she said happened was only that she was questioning it, but that she didn't believe I did it.

How do I get pass this? 

I  told her this:
and neither has mine. you were so angry with me at the funeral, believing i took the money and now not admitting it. otherwise you would have told me that you didn't think i took the money, and when i wrote you and jean that letter when i got home from the funeral you never wrote to say, i didn't think you took it. i am unwaivering here as well.

they seem to think that i don't recall taking it because i am a kleptomaniac. and I don't believe that jean believes me now. she just wants peace.


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## heatherly (Jan 22, 2012)

I want to continue with this family saga in hope that it may help someone else along the way.

It is almost obvious to me that Jean really just apologized and admitted that she believed I took the money in order to keep me in her life, but I will play this by ear.

Cilla, on the other hand has kept with her stance of I never believed you took the money and would not go into detail or read what I sent to her; instead she called and cried about her minor surgery coming up. I told her that I still did not believe her, and she wrote back, I will miss you and I have never been rejected by a family member before. 

In the mean time my guilt kept coming back up. I talked with another friend about this and she said, "It isn't about the $40; they don't like you." A light bulb went off in my head, and I know I have been told this before, but not is such a short sentence. My mom talked against us to each other all the time because she didn't want us to like each other. It worked. And in little ways over the years I have had digs from them and just let it go.

Then I remembered how I got out of my depression years ago, I used positive affirmations as a mantra, silently saying them all day, and I was cured. Now I am saying, "It is all going to be okay." and I say this whenever I begin to think about them. And in my mind it also means that they are going to be okay without me too, and then I thought, "Isn't that egotistical to think that they will be terribly sad without me?" And so I just go back to thinking only, "It will all be okay." And it is working.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (Jan 22, 2012)

Psychology bills: $100 a visit

Phone and internet bills: $60 per month

Lightbulb moments:  Priceless


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## Thehurtstopshere (Jan 22, 2012)

> A Christian friend of mine said that she believes in forgiving her and allowing her to visit. I am not a Christian, left that long ago. I tried Buddhism, and their view was to not let what they say bother me. I am no longer Buddhist either. This belief of not complaining that someone has hurt you doesn't set right with me. It smacks of allowing people to abuse you.



Sadly..If it weren't for Christians, there would be more Christians..

I try to keep in mind that forgiveness is healing for the forgivER and isnt so much for the forgivEE. Also, that even GOD expects that if we go asking for forgiveness that we do it feeling truly, genuinely "sorry" and that we then try to not repeat the action..thats not the same as..I forgive you for hurting me even though you arent sorry and will probably not think twice about doing it again...

More people have suffered and died in the name of religion than anything else and its sad. Good luck to you and I commend your strength and insight. peace and Love


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## heatherly (Jan 22, 2012)

thanks so much to both of you.


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## SuzyCerca (May 9, 2012)

I would like to thank you for this post!

These quotes are excellent for someone who is trying to strike a balance with a difficult family. 

Difficult people seem to think that "forgiveness" in a family means just letting them get away with anything and not letting it bother you when they continue to dump toxic waste on your head over and over.

These quotes really put the focus where it needs to be.

Thanks for posting these.




jollygreenjellybean said:


> Only reason I don't want to post them is they might be interpreted as "diagnosing" which I am not trying to do. I have found several links of different sources and sent them to you... Some of my favourite quotes:
> 
> "Yet, there is a difference between forgiveness and excusing; forgiveness is not excusing someone for hurting you. Forgiveness is not choosing to ignore a mistake that someone made or deciding to reconcile an offense that pained us. Forgiveness is not giving up or accepting ones behavior toward us when it was clearly wrong or immoral. Forgiveness does not give the permission to continue the action that hurts us. Forgiveness does not necessarily mean that there must be complete reconciliation in every situation."
> Posted 21st September, 2011 by Tim Thurman
> ...


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## heatherly (May 9, 2012)

You are so right Suzy. My family thinks that they can say and do anything and as I was told, "Get over it." My own younger brother said this: "Nothing anyone says to you in our family should bother you."  I think it ended with while we are disfunctional we love you type of answer.


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## H011yHawkJ311yBean (May 10, 2012)

I hear ya!  

If you're normal, and you're in a dysfunctional family, everyone in the family thinks YOUR dysfunctional!

"What's this?? Weird!  You want to be normal?!  Are you crazy??"


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## heatherly (May 10, 2012)

You are so right Jolly. I was treated like I was adnormal because I wouldn't put up with it. I was chastized because I packed my suitcase and left during the times I came to visit and found myself in the lion's den. I was always treated like it was my problem. My older brother did the same, and my younger brother recently said to me, "oh, you know him, "he always gets upset over nothing and leaves." Of course, his wife would leave too, and she is a head nurse and also teaches classes in communication skills. But it goes beyond treating you like you are the dysfunctional one, it is that you are "mentally disturbed," "crazy."


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## heatherly (May 30, 2012)

So after twomonths or so from the time of sending my sisters a letter with one respondingand apologizing right away, I get a letter from my younger sister, and it is aletter that I sent to her right after my mom's funeral 8 years ago, one where Itold them both what bothered me at the funeral, that I didn't like beingaccused of stealing. As I said the older sister apologized right away, but thisyounger sister sends me the letter I wrote 8 years ago, and one she sent to me8 years ago, if I ever got it. 

I emailed andasked her if she still believed all she wrote in it, and she emailed back, Yes.I wrote again to question her about what she believed, because basically Icouldn't believe that she could still believe, especially since my older sisteradmitting thinking I took the money. She wrote, Your email was overwhelmingwith words, and I told you how I felt that day in my letter some 8 years ago. Ican't feel any different now." 

I wrote, “Thenneither can I." and it was only half a page of questions, so I wrote backand told her what I felt about her letter and haven't heard from her, which isfine. Basically, she said she wrote to prove that she never thought I took themoney at the funeral. The letter never proved it. Get this: She said that Momtook the money (Yes, our dead Mom), and that it was Mom who caused us all toget into a "family drama." And then she blamed me for our brother notspeaking to her because I should not have told him that we were fighting, andshe said that my older sister wasn't accusing me, that I was just paranoid (andI said in my letter, that I am sure she didn't read, that this must mean thatmy sister lied when she admitted to believing that I took the money recently).And then she said something that always bothered me about her when we talked onthe phone, and it had to do with her telling me that I was paranoid: "Ithink you just got paranoid over thinking people were looking at you strangely.You were feeling uncomfortable and assumed that. (assumed people thought I tookthe money) I can understand how you would do that, but you have no proof exceptyour own feelings. Sometimes our feelings are right and sometimes they areplaying tricks on us." 

And that is how she has treated me since the funeral, if not before. If I toldher that I was upset with a friend and why, she would deny me my perceptions,and I got to where I didn't like talking to her about things, especially sinceI have dealt with a few strange people in the few years since I have moved tothe State I am in. So I told her that she did this to me all the time, not thatshe read the letter.

But to her I should not have told my brother what was happening, and now hedoesn't speak to her, not that she calls him. 

I also "run away from my demons," she said, and I should have stayedand faced what was happening. I told her that the only demons I run from are myfamily. This is crazy. I guess I should have accepted the abuse I was gettingfrom everyone. But I like how she said that I "have no proof." So shedenies the proof that was there, i.e. my sister admitting that she thought Itook it; my brother saying he walked into the house and the kids said I tookMom's money, and then my brother telling me that she told him that I was akleptomaniac. 

I hope it is over with. I am so sick of her. I went back to my therapist justto get her view point. It was the same as my own, and she said that she willnever be any different on this. She won't budge. She blames everyone butherself. I was glad to have her see what I was dealing with in my family. 

And last of all, in her letter, she shares her deathbed experiences withMom, and then she sends me a Xerox photo of the family.


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## Wolverine (Dec 20, 2012)

Communication problems with my family,all the time they call me how lazy i am,how useless and that i don't care for nothing,i have emotionally stuck,i am one step from to visit psychologist but i still thinking for the money,i don't want to ask them money for this,i must keep it as a secret for my self.Things going worse and worse,i don't have any support from them,everytime we disagree.


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## heatherly (Feb 8, 2014)

i am back in exactly the same situation. (brief run down. sisters accused me of stealing my mom's money at her funeral. brother was on their side, other brother my side. one sister finally admitted that she believed i took it and she was sorry so we are friends again. the other two are busy denying it, said it was my own imagination, and now, we all remember things differently.anyway, the one sister sent me a stupid christmas gift, and i gave it away but i called her to thank her for it and she was cordial on the phone and tried twice within a minute or two to get off. then i wrote her and told her to not send me any more gifts due to all that has happened. my brother, well, never hear from him, but his wife sends me a gift once a year. i told them to send no more because my brother had been unwilling to talk about these things, saying that my brother and his wife didn't know what they were talking about when they said that the family was talking about me being a thief. i don't understand the denials, but what is worse, is my sister wrote again and said that "It's not how I remember it. I never once said you did it.   You have  read my letters I have not wavered my feelings.  I felt the whole thing  was horrible.  Sorry I couldn't fix it then and I can't now." Maybe i should be able to let it go, but i can't. i feel like they are gaslighting me. but i feel that because she is my sister i should lie and say, okay i believe you, but that would be lying to myself. I get really angry and bummed out over this. i want to do the right thing. i was brought up believing that family was important and you had to always forgive them and have them in your life. i know my sister is lying because she admitted it over a year ago, that is, admitted that she talked to my brother and said that i was a klepto but she said she was only questioning whether i was, and then the story changed when she she called my brother and he said he didn't remember. so now she says there is no proof, and it is in my imagination. is there a book i can read to get over this? sometimes when you are being gaslighted you no trust yourself either, but i wrote it down. thank you.


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## Ftbwgil (Feb 9, 2014)

I can relate to your situation. As brothers and sisters our relationship is in disarray. I understand your wanting that brother sister relationship.  If you ever had that count yourself fortunate.  If you do not have that today then I  beleive all you can do if you wish because love is a choice is love them.  Real love is unconditional therefore if they do not respond in the way that you wish .... you cannot change them and accepting is better for your health.  They are who they are and it can be prettry complex. We have enough keeping us busy working on ourselves that once we extend ourselves in the behavior of others ... we will probably be disapointed because we have no control on how people think or feel. 

This is their opinion and you know the truth that is all you need to know.  They might or might not figure it out one day. That is not your problem.. Loook after yourself and you can still love them just dont allow yourself to be hurt by them.

Good luck


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## heatherly (Feb 9, 2014)

thank you, but i am not sure of this forgiving them when they have gaslighted me


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## rdw (Feb 9, 2014)

You don't forgive them for them, you forgive them for you. As long as you focus on them, they have power and control over you. When you turn it around and just focus on what you believe it begins to not matter on what they think or say. It really is about not making what they say your reality.


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## heatherly (Feb 9, 2014)

I used to want to prove to them that I didn't take the money, even if I had to do a lie detector test, but now I think, if that is what they thought about me, then I don't want them in my life. And their lying about it is what really bothers me now because they want to make me out to be nuts, and that makes me not want them in my life at all. Then I feel guilty for not wanting them in my life because "they are family." I can forgive them because I know that they have their own problems from growing up in our household, but I always felt that forgiveness means to have them in my life.This is where I am having so much guilt, I can't stand it. Yet, if I had them in my life on their terms, which is to just let it go, then that would always be between us. Neither my one brother or sister ever apologized. I don't think that unconditional love means to put you back in the place where you can be hurt again by people.


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## W00BY (Feb 10, 2014)

Forgiveness has to be in the balance that jolly has described
I really can't add to this much because jolly has put it all so well

I have a very emotional damaging family and not because of religious belief but because I was shaped to not only forgive but accept abusive and constant erosion of myself by all my closest family members.

When fundamentally you are a nice person...those that are not, will assume they can do as they wish with you and your life...and part of being nice when you are experiencing this becomes warped and internalized making yourself think that because you are running into issues that are making others behave this way that it must in some way be your fault.

And so the constant trying to forgive and fix and ignore things you know deep down are wrong starts...

I now think of forgiveness as a gift and not a given because you are related to me or because in some way it was my fault...

It is not a presumed right of others to expect and from the sounds of things you have ended up with some issues just trying to be nice and being left with all the crappy backwash from others not respecting that!

I have put myself into some very dangerous situations with my own family just to be able to understand in my own head that it is not me it is them...unfortunately it left me with baggage too...but now I pride myself on not being like them but still understand that I need to protect myself in order not to end up in therapy and unable to get out of bed because I hate myself for falling into the same emotional traps set for me by others for the hundredth-odd time.

More often than not it is the hurt of someone else we care about that will spurn us into action for me and as you also pointed out it is my children...I will not accept anyone doing to them what I will readily accept and that is where the protection needs to be an "as if" situation.

If they did that to my kids how would I feel?...Therefore why am I accepting it when directed at myself?

Jolly is so right it is no bad thing to keep corrosive and damaging people out of your life and being a nice person should not also be your burden.

It is a strength of character not many have and you just have to have that presence of mind to not forgo yourself in interactions with others and think objectively when you do get that sensation deep down of unease about the situation.

We owe it to those around us to care for ourselves how we care for them and sometimes that means leaving people behind that drag you down and turn you against yourself!

Your a nice person who deserves other nice people in your life!


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## heatherly (Feb 10, 2014)

*I was shaped to not only forgive but accept abusive and constant erosion of myself by all my closest family members.*

Thank you Wooby. So was I. 
*
When fundamentally you are a nice person...those that are not, will assume they can do as they wish with you and your life*.

I feel like I have allowed my family to continually abuse me, because even though I always became angry with them for doing so, my forgiving them, caused them to think that they could continue. And so they felt that they could get away with it.

I have noticed in my family how often we stop speaking to each other, and our mom did the same with me, and I think, "I don't want to be like her and reject others in the family," and so I felt guilty for rejecting my brother and sister. But in some ways, now that I am thinking about it, not speaking with certain family members can actually be healing, and maybe it is for them too in that they get away from the madness. But there are times in our family when we have been rejected, not spoken to in years, because of something a family member believed we said or did which was not true.  I don't want to be like that with family members. I just listened to my niece talk about how she was accused and not spoken to by her dad (my brother) for 3 years until she made him listen. I saw how one of my friends fell and got a black eye, which was now purple, and so she wore a purple sweater, and I thought it wonderful and realized that the time I fell and got a black eye I felt people would think that my husband hit me, and actually one person did, but I realized then that my family would have thought that he had, and so I was sensitive to that. Not everyone is like my family, are they? 

I wish now that when I realized that I was being blamed for taking money that I had said nothing and just left for home, forgetting my mom's funeral, especially when I hadn't wanted to be there anyway. It would have saved me a lot of heartache. And yesterday when I saw that my sister was sticking to her story of, "I never thought you took it, and you just don't remember what happened," and I replied, "I took notes." and she still didn't want to take any responsibility, I stopped answering her emails. I realized that she wasn't suffering by our not speaking because she was not apologizing, etc.  And my brother didn't respond, and so I should just not feel guilty, and so far so good. I believe that I was just concerned that I was hurting them by not speaking to them. I realize now that I am not that important in their lives, and I am beginning to see that it is best to never get in that kind of situation again. And actually, I have not wanted to be with them in their little reunions and have refrained from doing so all of these years, and I tell them all, and I mean it, I will never go to another family funeral. It is hard to believe that I was that traumatized. And my one niece says, "Get over it."  Her last statement was: "[FONT=&quot]I  do think that you need to let it go though.  That was a long time ago  and nobody even thinks about it anymore until you bring it up.  We are  all family and love each other unconditionally or we are supposed to."  Unconditionally, not true. Most family members will not speak to her anymore.  I have brought it back up over and over again because I kept thinking that I could change how my family felt, and that I believed that my other two nieces wanted nothing to do with me because they were told that I took mom's money. I lost out on their lives for the last 10 years, with them getting married, one having children, etc. All because I saw how rejecting my family was, how one cousin was on drugs and wrote a check from someone in the families account and was caught. Then later on she stopped drugs and became a Christian, but we were still forbidden to talk with her. Or how my mother didn't speak to my dad's sisters due to an argument, and so we couldn't either.  And it makes me angry to see how my family treats my nieces. They all expect the worse of everyone. I am grateful for my ex-sister-in-law for writing to me and confirming my own feelings about them. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Again you wrote: *More often than not it is the hurt of someone else we care about that will spurn us into action.  *And you are right. That did it for me. I even think how my brother and his new wife think that their son is autistic because of his behavior, and yet how he acts is exactly how we acted and how some of us still act, but because my brother's step-daughter is studying psychology, they believe her, and now he has that stigma. And yet he gets along fine with his own friends. What a sad family.

[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]Jolly is so right it is no bad thing to keep corrosive and damaging  people out of your life and being a nice person should not also be your  burden.

[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot]This is true, it should not be my burden, and I hope it never becomes one again. If I even think of trying to get things right again, I will re-read this thread.

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]*We owe it to those around us to care for ourselves how we care for them  and sometimes that means leaving people behind that drag you down and  turn you against yourself!

Your a nice person who deserves other nice people in your life!

*Thank you.

 [/FONT]


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## Ftbwgil (Feb 11, 2014)

I agree with you..... about everything.... because they are family does not give them the right to hurt us. This genetic pull towards familly is very strong... this wanting to fit in with them etc.  If they hurt you and do not make you feel good then why would you throw yourself in fire.  When i say forgive ... it is but a word... what i mean is I release them from my life and in my case and looks like yours... I shut off all ties ..... as any communication with them is manipulation. I can relate to where you where at.  

Your doing well


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## W00BY (Feb 12, 2014)

It is a very primal form of acceptance... I know I certainly crave to this day.... the need to fit in with my family.It is a real difficulty to carve your own identity in a family, and the sense of exclusion is so strong when you are rejected all you want to do is recover it in some way and when that effort is emotionally abused further you try harder and harder to get what you can't have. 

But the first "lightbulb moment" you get when you force yourself to make that stand in favor of your happiness is so amazing and you are so proud of finding there is a strength you'd ignored within yourself...

Since sorting out the borders of my family initially things have went really well but my dad dying and my son being desperately ill made me have to revisit some of them and in some cases forced my hand into stopping total contact until behavior changed, particularly around my very ill son... I micro managed the people around him as I wanted him to be as happy as possible and there be no family drama around him...so some of the festering you can just ignore in normal circumstances became sharply as issue at this point.

I was so anxious and anticipative of one very close family members visits I decided to just be totally honest much to the dislike of the family member who told me she never wanted to see my son again

I felt sick to the bottom of my stomach having to say how I felt in a clam manner about such emotive issues but two months on they phoned and I picked it up and explained very clearly what was needed before access to my son would be allowed... again and I beat myself up because they apologized as I did not want it to get to this stage...but...I did it and now they know where the line is and what happens if it is crossed and stopped a whole bunch of anxiety that had me moaning so much my partner rolled his eyes every time I mentioned it...my point is...

I look at that person who did this and don't recognize them, but it is me and what I wanted to stop and I fixed and knew it was ok to do is now fixed... in therapy my therapist would say " I had given myself permission" and it is such a wonderful sensation that moment...so yes your family is a handful and it is heavy at times dealing with the drama and strain of it but working towards where you want to be is something only you can do for you and it's so nice when you do it and see the results!

*cheesy grins*


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## heatherly (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks Ftb and Wooby,

Wooby, I am sorry about your dad dying, and I really hope that your son will be okay. 

I have often asked myself if my sister would be in my life if she were not family. No, I would have left her friendship years ago. You stay because you have been brainwashed by religion or other people to believe that "they are family; you have to forgive them." And that means, not just forgive but to keep in your life. Forgiving is one thing; having them in your life, another. Perhaps that is an extension of "Honor your father and your mother." Yet, I just looked and here is a website that is Christian but gives a great answer in regards to honoring: "How Do You Honor Deeply Flawed Parents?" - Probe Ministries

*But first, let me say that one aspect of honoring flawed parents is to understand that the best (or even only) way you might be able to honor them is from a distance, emotionally and physically. You can give yourself permission to do that. 

*But to me that doesn't mean "respecting" them because I can't, but I can wish them the best in life and hope that they are happy, and that I do.There was a brief period in my life with my sister where I enjoy her fully, and that was in the 70s when we were kind of like hippies together. In later years, I found that she continually invalidating my perceptions and feelings, and I wanted to get away. The brother in this case, well, I was never raised with him. He is my half-brother and was two years old or so when I moved away from home. I always had a high opinion of him until just realizing things about him. He was never a talker either, so whenever I came to visit my mom and step-father he would come over and put a book in his nose. So he never really knew me, which is probably why he listened to my sister who grew up with him. To think that $40 being stolen at the funeral ended up like this. But it wasn't about the $40, it was about their view of me. 

When you are being gaslighted it is hard to not think, "Well, maybe they didn't think I took the money," and then you read their conflicting emails and letters, and you had taken notes at that time, and you listen to your older brother and wife who was there, and you realize, "No, they are really gaslighting me, and they know it."

Sounds like you have a great therapist Wooby. Wish I had, but I go in and talk, and all I get is listening. My husband is more wise than that, and so this time I had him read the emails and respond to me. I didn't bother with going to a therapist. I wanted things analyzed, I wanted opinions, I got none. Maybe that is best. And when it came down to answering my sister's last email, I couldn't do it. I gave up the fight and feel better about myself. 


*the need to fit in with my family.It is a real difficulty to carve your own identity in a family, and the sense of exclusion is so strong when you are rejected all you want to do is recover it in some way and when that effort is emotionally abused further you try harder and harder to get what you can't have.


*And then Wooby, you finally give up.


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## W00BY (Feb 12, 2014)

It is a psychotherapist I see and yes while it mainly listening there is very valuable and summarizing from each session by the therapist and sometimes challenging of perceptions.

You should seek a good psychotherapist (I would strongly recommend it) should you feel at any point you need help.

You can speak in detail about your issues surrounding your family with a lot of reflection on here.

Sometimes like good doctors you need to try a few avenues... sometimes just by speaking to people you find a good practitioner or someone who is aware of the services available in your area...there is also brilliant resources and links to other resources on this site and the admin here always endeavor to be helpful!


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## heatherly (Feb 12, 2014)

Thank you Wooby. There are only two in town, and I don't see to drive far away from here. The second one just sits there and repeats what you said to her, and I find that annoying. Plus, my insurance won't cover her. At least I have a lot of friends who listen, and it is nice coming here.


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