# Connecticut shooter



## Darkside

It has been reported that the shooter in Connecticut had Aspergers and a mental illness. I can tell from reading the news reports that people are already making the connection between Autistic Spectrum disorders and mental illness as if one causes the other. I'm concerned there is going to be a backlash against folks with Aspergers or Autism. 

My middle son has Aspergers and I have a cousin with it. They both suffer from depression and some anxiety, but I don't know of any study that makes a connection between Aspergers and mental illness that would lead to a mass shooting like this. Does anyone else?


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## David Baxter PhD

At this point, nothing at all is confirmed about the shooter, any mental health history he may have had - if any, his motives, or even his personal history. All we really known is that he had a brother and two divorced parents. Everything else is nothing more than rumor - and there's been way too much of that. 

I think we need to be careful not to add fuel to the fire of stigma, which is why I edited the title of this thread.


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## David Baxter PhD

*Adam Lanza and Asperger's Disorder*
_ Everyone Needs Therapy_
December 16, 2012

I knew this would happen, that someone would slap this diagnosis, Asperger's on Adam Lanza, a child so shy, so withdrawn, that he clung to the walls of the school. His mother took him out of school, home-schooled the boy.

She kept a pristine, perfectly ordered home. People will say he was angry at her for that, or because he was enmeshed. At age twenty, two years after his last contact with his father Peter, he snapped, bought a gun, and became a mass murderer. Some will say it was about that, or that he was a bully, picked on people younger than himself. He attacked _children_.

Most people are saying that schools need better protection. I envision bullet-proof doors and intercoms. Even then, even after gaining admission to the building, visitors will first pass through a metal detector, hopefully, and if they don't pass, won't be admitted through the second set of doors.

We can't lose school guards, principals, psychologists to people who have lost all control, who are listening to voices in their heads that tell them, "Do it! Kill everyone!"

Life is precious. We are all in tears over this.

_The Wall Street Journal_ posted excellent advice, what to tell your children, how to discuss these murders. They need to talk, and all week, this week, hopefully they will have that chance.

When the discussion comes to diagnosis, every child with Asperger's will be hiding under their desks!
It shouldn't be this way. It is not a violent disorder. _Paranoid Schizophrenia-_- that's a violent disorder, and _Schizoid Personality Disorder_, typified by aloofness characteristic of Adam Lanza, is sometimes premorbid to that.

The history we're hearing does not indicate any prior sociopathy. We're hearing he was shy, wore black.

I wrote about this when Cho Sueng Hu massacred 32 students at the Virginia Tech five years ago. Most professionals agreed that he suffered from Schizophrenia, Paranoid Type, and perhaps had Schizoid Personality Disorder, too.

For the record, since the DSM V (the American Psychiatric Association's diagnostic and statistical manual) isn't out yet, we're stuck with the DSM-IV.

You be the judge.

*Asperger's Disorder, 299.80*

(I) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
(A) marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(B) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(C) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interest or achievements with other people, (e.g.. by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(D) lack of social or emotional reciprocity(II) Restricted repetitive & stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least one of the following:
A) encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
(B) apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
(C) stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g. hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
(D) persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
(IV) There is no clinically significant general delay in language (E.G. single words used by age 2 years, communicative phrases used by age 3 years)
(V) There is no clinically significant delay in cognitive development or in the development of age-appropriate self help skills, adaptive behavior (other than in social interaction) and curiosity about the environment in childhood.
(VI) Criteria are not met for another specific Pervasive Developmental Disorder or Schizophrenia.


*Schizophrenia, Paranoid Type 295.30*

_The DSM IV-TR doesn't paginate, the following four all merge into one in the bible. Actual symptoms, that check list, won't help you at all._

The essential feature is the presence of prominent delusions or auditory hallucinations in the context of a relative preservation of cognitive functioning and affect. Symptoms characteristic of the Disorganized and Catatonic Types are not prominent. 

Delusions are typically persecutory or grandiose, or both, but delusions with other themes (e.g., jealousy, religiosity, or somatization) may also occur. The delusions may be multiple, but are usually orgnaized around a coherent theme. 

Hallucinations are also typically related to the content of the delusional theme.

Associated features include anxiety, anger, aloofness and argumentativeness.

The individual may have a superior and patronizing manner and either a stilted, formal quality or extreme intensity in interpersonal interactions.

The persecutory themes may predispose the individual to suicidal behavior, and the combination of persecutory and grandiose delusions with anger may predispose the individual to violence.

*Schizoid Personality Disorder 301.20*

A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four or more of the following:

(1) neither desires, nor enjoys close relationships, including family
(2) almost always chooses solitary activities
(3) has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
(4) takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
(5) lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
(6) appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others.
(7) shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity

B. Does not occur exclusively during the course of Schizophrenia, a Mood Disorder With Psychotic Features, another Psychotic Disorder, or a Pervasive Developmental Disorder, or another medical condition.

Schizoid Personality Disorder is found premorbid to schizophrenia.

What did people say about him? Everyone has something. 

*See also:*

*The Pain of Being Linked by Asperger Dx to a Mass Shooter*
by Lucy Berrington
December 16, 2012 

_When myths and misunderstandings are perpetuated, nonviolent people suffer._


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## Darkside

David Baxter said:


> At this point, nothing at all is confirmed about the shooter, any mental health history he may have had - if any, his motives, or even his personal history. All we really known is that he had a brother and two divorced parents. Everything else is nothing more than rumor - and there's been way too much of that.
> 
> I think we need to be careful not to add fuel to the fire of stigma, which is why I edited the title of this thread.



It has already been reported by numerous sources that Adam was diagnosed with Aspergers. Most of these sources, just as the one you quoted above, have also described his shyness, periods of withdrawal, and social awkwardness. As the father of an Aspergers child I am concerned -- no, make that VERY concerned -- that people are going to make the wrong connection between the shooting and Aspergers. Just the mention of it in the media was why I posted it in that forum. It potentially can result in further marginalization and stigma to those kids and people will make the connection that if they have Aspergers they are mentally ill and prone to violence. There is no connection and we can't let that happen.

You are being too rigid with your posting rules.

Authorities say Connecticut killer had Asperger's; experts say disorder isn't connected to violence - The Denver Post


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## David Baxter PhD

I know it's been reported. That's my point. It's been reported with little actual evidence to support that claim, solely on the basis of some peer descriptions from high school from people who admit they didn't know him well because he was "a loner". It has also been reported that he had some unspecified personality disorder.

See the article I posted above: the descriptions of his behavior could fit more than one diagnosis, including Schizotypal Personality Disorder.


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## David Baxter PhD

*In wake of U.S. shooting tragedy, it’s time to talk about mental illness, too*
by Simon Houpt, _The Globe and Mail_
Sunday, Dec. 16 2012

Bad reporting about the suspected Sandy Hook shooter may be having a beneficial effect.

On Friday, after unconfirmed reports emerged that Adam Lanza may have had Asperger’s syndrome, a form of autism, mental health advocates rushed to ensure the syndrome would not become linked in the public’s mind with violence.

“The search for answers should not be a search for a scapegoat,”  Autism Rights Watch, a non-profit organization based in Charlottesville,  Va., said in a statement issued Saturday.  “Autism is no excuse or explanation to evil. Being ‘autistic,’ ‘odd,’  ‘awkward,’ ‘camera shy,’ a ‘nerd’ and ‘uncomfortable with others’ does  not cause a person to become a mass murderer.”

But the mother of  one teenage boy, who suffers from what she says is an undiagnosed mental  illness, used the sudden national conversation as an opportunity to  plead for help and understanding. In “I am Adam Lanza’s Mother,”  writer Liza Long, based in Boise, Idaho, described the terror of living  with a clinically disturbed 13-year-old who has failed to respond to  medical treatment. “A few weeks ago, Michael pulled a knife and  threatened to kill me and then himself after I asked him to return his  overdue library books. His 7- and 9-year-old siblings knew the safety  plan – they ran to the car and locked the doors before I even asked them  to,” wrote Ms. Long on her personal blog, in a post that was later  picked up by larger blogs including Gawker and Buzzfeed.

She added  that she was, in essence, the mother of Adam Lanza; of the Columbine  killers, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris; of the Aurora, Colo., movie  theatre suspect, James Holmes; of Gabrielle Giffords’s assailant, Jared  Lee Loughner; and of the Virginia Polytechnic killer, Seung-Hui Cho. “And  these boys – and their mothers – need help. In the wake of another  horrific national tragedy, it’s easy to talk about guns,” she wrote.  “But it’s time to talk about mental illness.”


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## David Baxter PhD

*Autism Rights Watch Grieves for the Families after Newtown, CT Shootings*
Autism Rights Watch
Saturday, December 15, 2012

Autism Rights Watch grieves for the families of the Sandy Hook Elementary School and the community of Newtown, CT. We are devastated. Our wishes and condolences go to the many families affected. Our thoughts also go to the first responders who faced this horrific scene.

The news of the gunman massacre was an absolute shock. ?Evil visited this community? said Connecticut Governor Dannel Malloy. 20 year-old Adam Lanza made a horrible individual choice. He decided to shoot four weapons, kill his mother, attack an elementary school and take his own life.

Details are sketchy. According to ABC News, Ryan Lanza, the older brother of Adam Lanza, told police that his brother has Asperger Syndrome and another ?personality disorder.? Yet, as of now, the New York Times reported that ?law enforcement officials offered no hint of what had motivated Mr. Lanza?. Maybe someday, we will explain, though never justify, this tragedy.

The search for answers should not be a search for a scapegoat. Autism is no excuse or explanation to evil. Being ?autistic?, ?odd?, ?awkward?, ?camera shy?, a ?nerd? and ?uncomfortable with others? does not cause a person to become a mass murderer. Autistic persons are more likely to be victims, rather than perpetrators of violence. Autism Rights Watch urges the public and the media outlets not to stigmatize the autistic persons and their families. They already are facing segregation and prejudices on a daily basis.

The easy access to weapons in our households is the most solid contributing factor to this murder-suicide. Schools are not immune from rampage risks. This attack was the fourth in a school and the seventh this year in the United States. Years have passed since the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007 and the Columbine school shootings in 1999. This tragedy must be a real wake-up call. The death of these elementary school children should not be in vain. We congratulate President Barack Obama for his decision to push ?meaningful actions? that may help prevent such tragedy or revoke legislation that may assist it.

Autism Rights Watch joins in solidarity today to mourn the loss of lives in Connecticut. We are very confident in the ability of the police and the President to address the root causes of this murder-suicide without resorting to scapegoats and hasty explanations.


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## SilentNinja

"See the article I posted above: the descriptions of his behavior could fit more than one diagnosis, including Schizotypal Personality Disorder"

I have noticed in the stats of my blog loads of people suddenly searching for "schizotypal" because i tag my posts with that i have noticed that my visitors are people searching that tag!  not sure if its a coincidence. 

But the media are making it out that people with mental illness are insane, how are we ever going to stop the stigma


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## David Baxter PhD

That's a good question, SN. It's part of what we are trying to do here.

Whatever the diagnosis, the evidence from dozens of research studies over the past 30-40 years is clear: Individuals with a mental illness are far more likely to be victims of violence (or self-harm) than to be perpetrators of violence, no matter what the diagnosis. The evidence for that conclusion is overwhelming.

What we have to combat now is the almost constant hypothesizing, surmising, and conjecturing of media reporters hungry for something to say, no matter how meaningless. Most reporters are no better informed than the average person but they have a way of stating things as if they were known facts, even where they are not even likely possibilities.


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## SilentNinja

Exactly!! That is what is really making me angry and upset. I have a website for mental health and i want to try help end the stigma, i wish things wernt the way they are, the world is messed up. 
I hope one day things will change, but we just have to keep trying and fighting this.


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## David Baxter PhD

*Connection between mental health and violence misunderstood*
by CARLY WEEKS, _The Globe and Mail_
Monday, Dec. 17 2012

There are substantially more questions than answers about what led to the horrific events that unfolded in Newtown, Conn., last week.

But one thing seems clear: There is much misunderstanding about the connection between mental illness and violence.

Social networks are brimming with speculation about the type of mental illness the perpetrator, Adam Lanza, had been diagnosed with, as if that would help to explain his actions.

Many media outlets have been featuring medical experts offering uninformed opinions on Lanza?s psychological state and how similar events can be prevented.

Countless people have read and shared a blog post titled ?I Am Adam Lanza?s Mother,? in which a woman compares her 13-year-old son, whom she describes as aggressive and threatening, to Lanza, despite knowing next to nothing about his upbringing, background or behaviour.

The truth is that we simply do not know enough about Lanza. And even if his complete medical history was made public, it may not bring us any closer to understanding how he could kill so many people ? or how to prevent it from happening in the future.

That is because mental illness does not predict violent behaviour, nor does it explain why an individual would commit such acts.

?The issue of violence is very, very complex,? said Peter Szatmari, head of the department of child and adolescent psychiatry at McMaster Children?s Hospital in Hamilton. ?The vast majority of people that have mental-health challenges are not violent, so it?s really important to separate those two as quite different phenomena.?

In response to the 2011 shooting in Tucson, Ariz., involving former congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, Thomas Insel, the director of the U.S. National Institute of Mental Health, wrote a blog post stating the majority of people with serious mental illnesses, such as schizophrenia, are not violent and that they are actually more likely to be victims than perpetrators.

He added that when violence does come into the equation, individuals with mental illness are far more likely to harm themselves than others.

Marjory Phillips, clinical director of Integra, a children?s mental-health centre in Toronto, warns against the temptation to blame mental illness for the events in Newton. ?When a tragedy like this happens, people ? try to find answers,? she said. ?I think it?s overinterpreting and oversimplifying a very complex [issue] without the knowledge.?

There can be a relationship between mental illness and violence, but it is much more limited than most people realize. According to the Mental Health Commission of Canada, people with severe, untreated symptoms of serious illnesses such as schizophrenia with psychosis or major depression may have an increased rate of violence toward themselves or others. But, with intervention and treatment, these individuals ?are no more dangerous than the general population,? according to the commission?s website.

While many details of the Newtown case may remain a mystery indefinitely, several experts in the field say it may be a good time to talk about how to improve access to mental-health supports and services.

For instance, decades ago, the solution to aggressive children was to lock them away, said David Wolfe, director of the Centre for Prevention Science at the Centre for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto. That ?was not a proper resolution by any means? and now there are new treatments and therapies to help those, including children, who may be dealing with aggression or violence as a result of mental illness.

But there are simply too many gaps in the system and it is ill equipped to deliver the type of preventive care that could help individuals before they reach a breaking point. ?Our system in mental health is designed to respond at the very last minute,? Wolfe said.

For parents who may be worried about whether their child may be dealing with a mental illness, or how to know when to seek care, experts such as Wolfe offer several pieces of advice. They emphasize the importance of reaching out to others and not keeping the problems hidden. There are support groups parents can attend, for instance.

Szatmari noted that early intervention can help children and adolescents get treatment to manage their condition.

The mental-health system should also be easier for families and patients to navigate and more supports should be available in the community, Wolfe said.

?If we work together as a community and as a province, we can make a difference,? Szatmari said. ?We should have that as our motivating cry and not be paralyzed by the enormous sadness and tragedy of the event.?


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## David Baxter PhD

Asperger?s, Autism, and Mass Murder: Let?s Stop the Rush To Judgment
by John Elder Robison in _Psychology Today_
December 17, 2012 

Whenever something horrible happens the public and the media look for answers . . . factoids to explain what may be truly inexplicable.   Whatever information can be discovered is tossed out into public view in the hope that somehow a bunch of discrete facts and data points will somehow provide the answers everyone is seeking.

This happens whether the event is a catastrophic fire, a plane crash, or a mass killing.  Thanks to the Internet, people all over the world speculate about what happened and why, often in the absence of any firsthand information.  The result: a rush to judgment, and all too often - innocent people harmed.

Sometimes these early speculations are prescient.  When reporters observed an aviation mishap and said, ?the same thing happened on another flight a few years ago,? that report led to the discovery of a flaw in an aircraft?s design, and the potential saving of many lives when a design defect was corrected.

Unfortunately, on other occasions, early speculation proves unfounded, wrong, or irrelevant.  When that happens, innocent people are often harmed by the rush to judgment.  I?m very concerned that is occurring right now, as the public digests news reports about the Sandy Hook school murders.

Reporters are saying the killer had Asperger?s Syndrome, a form of autism.  Every time a news story does that ? by tying ?killer? and ?Asperger?s? in the same sentence ? they are at some level implying that there is a connection between autism and mass murder.   

There?s not.

Statisticians have a phrase for this situation:  Correlation does not imply causation.

Let me explain that by way of an example.  Three banks are robbed, in three different cities.  Each bank had security cameras trained on the entrances.  In each case, a review of the tapes showed a white Toyota Camry turning into the parking lot, moments before the robbery.

Was that a clue?  Did the same person rob all three banks?  No.  It was a random, irrelevant coincidence.   In fact, white Camrys are one of the most common cars in the country and we might observe them at the scene of most anything, without any causative connection at all.

How about this factoid:  Most school shooters are white Caucasian males.  You might find that statement a little more shocking than the previous one.  But it?s true.  Does that mean every white male Caucasian who enters a school is a potential mass murderer?  Of course not. 

Suggesting a mass murderer had Asperger?s is much the same ? it may be true, but stating the fact does nothing to explain the crime, nor does it help prevent other crimes in the future.   What it does do ? and this is important ? is paint a whole swath of population ? Asperger people ? with a brush that says ?potential mass murderer.?

That, folks, is a problem, because the average person does not know enough about Asperger?s to know it does not turn people into mass murderers.   They file that factoid away until the next time they see someone with Asperger?s.  Then, instead of giving him a fair shake, they treat him as a potential killer.  Everyone loses.  As an adult with Asperger?s, who?s seen enough discrimination already, I?m not too happy about that.

What can we do?  There?s no way to ?undo? a news story.

Going forward, perhaps the best thing we can do is explore the question:  Can Asperger?s turn a person into a mass murderer?  The simple answer is no.  Here are the reasons why:

Asperger?s is an autism spectrum disorder.  People with Asperger?s typically have difficulty reading the unspoken cues of other people.  You might say we are oblivious to the language of emotion.

Yet we are emotional people.  Many studies have shown folks with autism have very powerful emotions; the problem is, we often can?t express those feelings in ways others can recognize.  Sometimes our responses seem inappropriate (we may smile when you expect us to look sad.)  Other times, an event that triggers a strong emotional response in one person has no visible effect on a person with autism.

Lay people often take those signals to mean we Asperger people don?t have feelings, or we don?t care about them, or that we lack empathy.  Nothing could be farther from the truth.

As the definition of autism and Asperger?s says:  This is a communication disorder. It?s not a ?lack of feeling? disorder.   In fact, most clinicians who work with people on the autism spectrum will tell you autistic people tend to care deeply for people in their lives, and have a sweetness; a childlike gentleness ? something totally at odds with what you?d expect in a cold blooded killer.

There is nothing in the definition of Asperger?s or autism that would make a person think we are a violent group.  That?s reinforced by criminal justice studies telling us that people with autism are much less likely to commit violent crimes than the average person.  Indeed, those studies show autistic people are far more likely to be victims of violence than perpetrators. 

If you?re looking for a group of people to fear, we?re not it.

So where does that leave us, in our quest to understand these most recent killings?

Adam Lanza may well have had Asperger?s.  But that did not make him a killer.  Some other factor was at work.  Just as getting a cold doesn?t protect you from catching measles, having an Asperger diagnosis does not mean you don?t have a host of other issues as well.  One can suffer from homicidal rages, and also be diagnosed with Asperger?s.  Those conditions are not mutually exclusive. 

And that?s not the only possibility.  There are plenty of other frightening and disagreeable combinations in the world of psychiatry.

In fact, a child who grows up with a disability that leads to bullying (like Asperger?s) may develop violent feelings toward his tormenters.  Most times, those feelings stay inside, to the detriment of the victim.  Sometimes, though, the victims strike back.  When that happens I?d say it was the bullying, and not the disability, which turned that person violent.

One day we may have a hard medical test for autism ? including Asperger?s.  Until then, it?s diagnosed by observation ? a process that is unfortunately more prone to error than we would like.  The Asperger diagnosis attributed to Adam might even have been a mistake; sociopathy can masquerade as mild autism or Asperger?s.

It?s easy to see how the two conditions might be confused.  After all, one is characterized by a weak ability to show feelings, while the other is founded on an absence of feeling within, and a lack of innate moral foundation.  Those two conditions may look very similar, but the outcomes are not. One leads to anxiety, depression, and social failure.  The other may lead to evil, and a much darker place.

I?m not Adam?s therapist, and I have no knowledge of his case, but I would not be surprised if there was quite a bit more to his story.  Much of it may never be known. 

I wish I had some simple solutions to propose, so that we might prevent these horrific crimes in the future.  Unfortunately, I don?t.   A reading of history shows us that most rampage killers turned deadly with little or no warning.  Many had no prior history of serious violence and some had no criminal records at all. 

Yet there are things we can do.  We can take stronger steps to address bullying, and we can offer counsel to those adults in greatest need.  Many studies have shown that violence is a last resort for people at the end of their rope.  We have the power to give those people a lifeline, so they won?t turn to the gun.

To me, this crime and others like it show the great need for mental health reform.   We have no facility in this country for ?mental health checkups,? and we?ve pitifully few lifelines to help those on that slippery slope to suicide or murder, whatever the cause.  If I were to express a Christmas wish here, it would be that our politicians see that failing, and act.


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## David Baxter PhD

*Do We Have the Courage to Stop This?*
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF, _New York Times_
December 15, 2012

IN the harrowing aftermath of the school shooting in Connecticut, one  thought wells in my mind: Why can?t we regulate guns as seriously as we  do cars?    

  The fundamental reason kids are dying in massacres like this one is not  that we have lunatics or criminals ? all countries have them ? but that  we suffer from a political failure to regulate guns.        

  Children ages 5 to 14 in America are 13 times as likely to be murdered  with guns as children in other industrialized countries, according to David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard who has written an excellent book on gun violence.        

  So let?s treat firearms rationally as the center of a public health  crisis that claims one life every 20 minutes. The United States  realistically isn?t going to ban guns, but we can take steps to reduce  the carnage.        

  American schoolchildren are protected by building codes that govern  stairways and windows. School buses must meet safety standards, and the  bus drivers have to pass tests. Cafeteria food is regulated for safety.  The only things we seem lax about are the things most likely to kill.         

  The Occupational Safety and Health Administration has five pages of regulations about ladders, while federal authorities shrug at serious curbs on firearms. Ladders kill around 300 Americans a year, and guns 30,000.        

  We even regulate toy guns, by requiring orange tips ? but lawmakers  don?t have the gumption to stand up to National Rifle Association  extremists and regulate real guns as carefully as we do toys. What do we  make of the contrast between heroic teachers who stand up to a gunman  and craven, feckless politicians who won?t stand up to the N.R.A.?         

  As one of my Facebook followers wrote after I posted about the shooting,  ?It is more difficult to adopt a pet than it is to buy a gun.?        

  Look, I grew up on an Oregon farm where guns were a part of life; and my  dad gave me a .22 rifle for my 12th birthday. I understand: shooting is  fun! But so is driving, and we accept that we must wear seat belts, use  headlights at night, and fill out forms to buy a car. Why can?t we be  equally adult about regulating guns?        

  And don?t say that it won?t make a difference because crazies will  always be able to get a gun. We?re not going to eliminate gun deaths,  any more than we have eliminated auto accidents. But if we could reduce  gun deaths by one-third, that would be 10,000 lives saved annually.         

  Likewise, don?t bother with the argument that if more people carried  guns, they would deter shooters or interrupt them. Mass shooters  typically kill themselves or are promptly caught, so it?s hard to see  what deterrence would be added by having more people pack heat. There  have been few if any cases in the United States in which an ordinary  citizen with a gun stopped a mass shooting.        

  The tragedy isn?t one school shooting, it?s the unceasing toll across  our country. More Americans die in gun homicides and suicides in six  months than have died in the last 25 years in every terrorist attack and  the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq combined.        

  So what can we do? A starting point would be to limit gun purchases to  one a month, to curb gun traffickers. Likewise, we should restrict the  sale of high-capacity magazines so that a shooter can?t kill as many  people without reloading.        

  We should impose a universal background check for gun buyers, even with  private sales. Let?s make serial numbers more difficult to erase, and back California  in its effort to require that new handguns imprint a microstamp on each  shell so that it can be traced back to a particular gun.        

  ?We?ve endured too many of these tragedies in the past few years,?  President Obama noted in a tearful statement on television. He?s right,  but the solution isn?t just to mourn the victims ? it?s to change our  policies. Let?s see leadership on this issue, not just moving speeches.         

  Other countries offer a road map. In Australia in 1996, a mass killing of 35 people galvanized the nation?s conservative prime minister  to ban certain rapid-fire long guns. The ?national firearms agreement,?  as it was known, led to the buyback of 650,000 guns and to tighter  rules for licensing and safe storage of those remaining in public hands.         

  The law did not end gun ownership in Australia. It reduced the number of  firearms in private hands by one-fifth, and they were the kinds most  likely to be used in mass shootings.        

  In the 18 years before the law, Australia suffered 13 mass shootings ?  but not one in the 14 years after the law took full effect. The murder  rate with firearms has dropped by more than 40 percent, according to  data compiled by the Harvard Injury Control Research Center, and the suicide rate with firearms has dropped by more than half.        

  Or we can look north to Canada.  It now requires a 28-day waiting period to buy a handgun, and it  imposes a clever safeguard: gun buyers should have the support of two  people vouching for them.        

  For that matter, we can look for inspiration at our own history on auto  safety. As with guns, some auto deaths are caused by people who break  laws or behave irresponsibly. But we don?t shrug and say, ?Cars don?t  kill people, drunks do.?        

  Instead, we have required seat belts, air bags, child seats and crash  safety standards. We have introduced limited licenses for young drivers  and tried to curb the use of mobile phones while driving. All this has reduced America?s traffic fatality rate per mile driven by nearly 90 percent since the 1950s.        

  Some of you are alive today because of those auto safety regulations.  And if we don?t treat guns in the same serious way, some of you and some  of your children will die because of our failure.


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## icthus

Sounds like good points, David. "Successful" reporters and their publishers tend to compose and publish news that sells. It's not that the whole is or parts are always misrepresented, but bias and distortion seems part of the warp and woof of human systems. 

Any (initial?) comments regarding reasons for a call for investigation at School Shooters on Drugs ? CCHR International (perhaps other than, "We don't what would have happened if no psychiatric drugs were used ..." or the like)?


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## David Baxter PhD

icthus said:


> Any (initial?) comments regarding reasons for a call for investigation at School Shooters on Drugs ? CCHR International (perhaps other than, "We don't what would have happened if no psychiatric drugs were used ..." or the like)?



Sure. It's utter garbage.

1. None of the claims on that page are backed up by any evidence or even references.

2. Even if we accept as true the "facts" presented on that page, the attempt to blame "psychiatric drugs" is absurd. According to that page, the individuals were said to be taking a wide variety of psychoactive prescription medications. Are we supposed to believe that all of these medications result in homicidal impulses? What about the millions of people who have taken these medications with no homicidal urges or acts? Are we really supposed to accept that "traces of Xanax" will create homicidal maniacs?

3. Even if we accept the facts given on that page, the best that anyone could reasonably conclude is that all of the shooters had some history of mental health issues. That's why medications were prescribed in the first place.


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## icthus

David Baxter said:


> Sure. It's utter garbage.
> 
> 1. None of the claims on that page are backed up by any evidence or even references.
> 
> 2. Even if we accept as true the "facts" presented on that page, the attempt to blame "psychiatric drugs" is absurd. According to that page, the individuals were said to be taking a wide variety of psychoactive prescription medications. Are we supposed to believe that all of these medications result in homicidal impulses? What about the millions of people who have taken these medications with no homicidal urges or acts? Are we really supposed to accept that "traces of Xanax" will create homicidal maniacs?
> 
> 3. Even if we accept the facts given on that page, the best that anyone could reasonably conclude is that all of the shooters had some history of mental health issues. That's why medications were prescribed in the first place.



Thank you for your response.

On the face of it, claiming "psychiatric drug caused shooting" seems to engage in guilt-by-association in a sort of cart-before-horse sort of way, if I can put it that way, but I was not as confident as you that was the direction the article was pointing, though I could be wrong. 

More probably in my view, the author anticipates that an investigation would show some sort of statistical correlation of sets of patient factors yielding some warnings to the effect--I'm just imagining an example--that "in the presence of the sum of such-and-such genetic predispositions, past personal history, biological marker, whatever ... and "psychiatric drug "X," there is an increased risk of mass shooting or (more likely) violent behavior by so-much." 

Of course one may doubt that such statistical correlations (whatever they might be) may reasonably be discovered or measured in much of medical practice or that any correlation would be statistically significant sufficient to warrant legal accountability somewhere or otherwise that some sort of practical advantage may be had. Doubt in investigation outcome seems not unreasonable to me at the outset. 

But claiming "it's utter garbage" from straight out of the barrel (please excuse the pun) seems premature to me. No doubt the warnings associated with various drugs of possible violent behavior side effects (they are there for some drugs, are there not?) were meant to cover someone's legal hind quarters in rare and arguably unpredictable cases, but is there no other reason at all for the warnings to be there? With a large amount of data would an investigation necessarily produce no statistically significant and useful correlation(s)? Or are past investigation simply adequate?

It seems reasonable to me when engaging in thorough investigation to question the "facts" of drug presence among cases investigated and relevant to the present issue, but why from the outset doubt the presence of drugs (or wrt a withdrawal period as noted) in the bodies of the individuals listed in the article as mass shooters? Is it not reasonable to assume they were each psychologically disturbed individuals and also taking some sort of prescribed "psychiatric drugs" designed to address the psychological disturbance as the article claims? Granted, you argue "if we accept," but why reject, seemingly out of hand? 

I'm all for defending the innocence and reliably non-violent behavior of the vast majority of "psychiatric drug" patients (and all for saving tax payer monies spent on investigations where reasonable), but I do not entirely understand your initial, virtually unqualified dismissal of the call for an investigation in the cited article.


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## David Baxter PhD

1. I know of no causal link between any known medication properly prescribed and taken as prescribed and violence. Indeed, from my own research several years ago, I could only find evidence of enhanced predilection for violence with two drugs, alcohol and PCP ("angel dust"), neither of which are likely to be prescribed for any mental health condition.

2. As I said above, to accept the conclusions made on that site, you would have to believe that there is a causal link between not just one or two medications but a wide variety of medications (in one case, based on the claim that "trace amounts of the drug Xanax", a minor tranquilizer, was found in the individual's system).

3. The logic is fatally flawed for drawing the conclusions that are drawn. First, even if it were true that an individual committing an act of violence were taking a psychotropic drug at the time, it does not of course mean that the violent act was caused by that drug. There are many acts of violence committed every month: Would you believe that all of them were taking specific medications at that time? Even if you did believe that, at best it is an interesting correlation but correlation is NOT causation. What else did the individuals mentioned in the report have in common? How many went to school as children? How many were breast fed? How many drank milk as children? How many drank coffee on a regular basis? How many had one or more siblings? How many grew up with two parents? How many had a pet at some point growing up? How many had used alcohol or marijuana? How many were of a specific race or ethnic background? How many were of average intelligence? Do you think anyone would suggest that these other correlates were causally related to violence?

Even when it comes to side-effects of certain medications, the question remains as to which side-effects are related to the drug and which to the condition the drug is treating - again, the problem is one of correlation versus causation. See Making sense of medication side-effects - Psychlinks Psychology & Mental Health Blog ? Psychlinks Psychology & Mental Health Blog 

And, again, all of this presupposes that the claims made at that link concerning are even factually accurate. The statements are presented as "facts" without any evidence or citation sources. Anyone can sate so-called "facts": see snopes.com: Urban Legends Reference Pages for a large compendium of "facts" that are commonly circulated and believed but that have no basis in reality at all.


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## Darkside

It is all over the press but I'm glad they seem to have dropped the reference to Aspergers in the last few days. I fear backlash against these kids (and particularly my own son) and it doesn't have to be true for that to happen. Now they are saying that his mother had filed a petition to have him committed, but I can't imagine that would be for Aspergers. In fact, I don't think that is even grounds for committal.

But something happened to that boy and I hope we will find out. I also hope that the focus will shift to how we should best care for him and all those who are mentally ill.


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