# Vicodin



## BluMac81 (Jan 13, 2010)

So, here I am, now 4+ months sober from alcohol, yet another mood-altering chemical entered my life a few months back, when I was in a car accident.  It was vicodin, and right after I took it, not only did I notice that my physical pain was gone, but I also noticed that ever-lingering 'not being comfortable in my own skin' feeling gone, depression gone, anxiety gone, and hyper-vigilance gone.  So over this winter, every time I got a flu (which happened a lot for some reason), I'd go to the ER and get some more Vicodin, which always did the trick.  

  And now I'm at the point where if I stop, I will go through withdrawls, and yes I have experienced opiate withdrawls when I tried to stop and they are horrendously awful.  So I'm still on them, because of these odd 'morning pains' I experience every day (my doctor has me seeing a rheumatoid specialist and going to pain management for it.)  And to be perfectly honest, I do not see why it is stigmatized as such a bad drug.  I feel so guilty using it, because sometimes I just use it to rid myself of depression and anxiety, and it does just that.  I mean, I acknowledge that the tyelonol in it is very bad on my liver, I take milk thistle to help with that (which by the way I consider very suspicious that they would put acetomenaphin with hydrocodone, maybe just to prove the negative effects of the drug.)  And I do realize the withdrawls I would have to face once I go off of them, yet everything else I take, the SSRI's, the Xanax, they both also have withdrawls, maybe less than or equal to opiate withdrawls.  I do not experience side effects from the drug other than constipation (followed by diarrurea in the morning.)  And coming down from it is rather gentle.  I just don't understand why it has been so stigmatized as being BAD BAD BAD by the FDA and DEA.  I would even go as far as to say that Vicodin could be a possible perscription used for mental health patients, in chronic conditions of course.  Oh and if you are wondering, due to my tolerance (probably built up by alcohol, and my father's genes), I am at about 16 Vicodin a day (5/500).  My mother and close friend frown upon me using it, and so I feel so guilty when I do, but while I'm on it, I am totally myself, not drunk like with alcohol, just relaxed, with no social anxiety or depression.  I am also using it to help me through the onset of starting on Wellbutrin, which in the past had side effects when starting the drug that were unbearable, I want to see it through this time and let the theraputic dose be reached.

  I know I'll probably receive a lot of flack out there because of this, a lot of 'oh my god you need to get off of it asap' etc. etc., but I ask that you keep an open mind and think logically on this matter, and consider the arguments that I have made.  Actually Vicodin has helped me stay sober in terms of alcohol thank God, but yes, I do recognize that I can't stay on this drug forever (same thing with Xanax) and eventually will need to go to a detox program, perhaps this spring break.  I just want to rid myself of this guilt for taking the drug, perhaps hear of any of your experiences with this drug.

Thanks for reading,
Matt


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## Jazzey (Jan 13, 2010)

It's just another form of being 'absent' Blue.  Sobriety means sobriety - being here, now.  No drugs, no alcohol...

And no, vicodin should not be administered to mentally ill patients.  It's addictive.  There's a reason why it's a 'prescription' medication and, there's a reason why your mother and close friend frown upon you're using it - it's just yet another way of not being sober....You know that. 

And no, I'm not frowning upon you.  I have my own struggles with alcohol.  I go to AA now (finally) and that's why I'm taking the liberty of telling you - 'sobriety' is 'sobriety'.  You don't get to check out by using pills.  Otherwise, it's no longer sobriety.


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## BluMac81 (Jan 13, 2010)

Jazzey said:


> It's just another form of being 'absent' Blue.  Sobriety means sobriety - being here, now.  No drugs, no alcohol...
> 
> And no, vicodin should not be administered to mentally ill patients.  It's addictive.  There's a reason why it's a 'prescription' medication and, there's a reason why your mother and close friend frown upon you're using it - it's just yet another way of not being sober....You know that.
> 
> And no, I'm not frowning upon you.  I have my own struggles with alcohol.  I go to AA now (finally) and that's why I'm taking the liberty of telling you - 'sobriety' is 'sobriety'.  You don't get to check out by using pills.  Otherwise, it's no longer sobriety.



Thanks Jazzey, I see what you're saying about 'sobriety' is 'sobriety', but I am stuck in between conflicting worlds, because psychiatry is shoving pills down my throat that are indeed addictive (like Xanax) and apparently it is okay, but Vicodin is not?  I'm just wondering where the line is drawn, because you know psychiatrists are at least going to have you on an antidepressant if not also a benzo.

Still though I kinda get what you're saying, it's like what I read in my 'alcoholics relapse book', that often alcoholics use subsitutions for alcohol.  I knew staying sober wouldn't be so easy.... I thought it was.  I just couldn't stand living my life sober, it was too painful


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## Andy (Jan 13, 2010)

I know this is none of my business and I am totally interrupting. Apparently I am posting anyways. 
When you compared the psychiatric medication to how your taking vicodin, it is not the same thing. The benzo's are addictive, but that is up to you as someone who has addiction issues to tell your Dr.s that you have this problem, and any good Dr. would not continue to give you something that may become an addiction. 

Just my 2 cents. :blush:


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## forgetmenot (Jan 13, 2010)

Hey i think talking with your doctor who ordered your medication tell this doctor your addictive traits and slowly wean off them to something not addictive okay.  Substituting one addiction for another not wise and vicodin is a very strong medication one not to be fooled with.  Be honest with your doctor and get off them okay take care.  Just want to say nice to hear from you again BluMac81 take care.


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## Jazzey (Jan 14, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> Thanks Jazzey, I see what you're saying about 'sobriety' is 'sobriety', but I am stuck in between conflicting worlds, because psychiatry is shoving pills down my throat that are indeed addictive (like Xanax) and apparently it is okay, but Vicodin is not?  I'm just wondering where the line is drawn, because you know psychiatrists are at least going to have you on an antidepressant if not also a benzo.
> 
> Still though I kinda get what you're saying, it's like what I read in my 'alcoholics relapse book', that often alcoholics use subsitutions for alcohol.  I knew staying sober wouldn't be so easy.... I thought it was.  I just couldn't stand living my life sober, it was too painful



With all due respect Blue, there is quite a difference between Xanax and Vicodin - You're a bright young man.  I do not have to explain the distinction to you. The line is drawn at what you take for your health versus what you take to 'check out'.  I'm currently on Citalopram (Celexa) - that, for me at least, saves my life on a daily basis.  But, that is quite a stretch from asking for prescriptions that I know, in my heart of hearts, will put me in danger. I just recently got a prescription for a sleep aid. And this was after weeks and weeks of simply not sleeping.

Blue - you, and only you, can be a real manager of your own health.  That means 1) being really (and I mean "really") being honest with any prescribing doctor; 2) and more importantly - being honest with yourself....

As an alcoholic, (yikes that's still hard to verbalize for me) - I know that I will forever try and find other mechanisms to 'check out'.  And, if I do - I may as well come back to alcohol.  My goal right now - to just be present in this lifetime.  Yes, you're right, it can be bloody painful.  But that's part of this life Blue - feeling that pain, dealing with it so that we never have to go through the same trauma again.  And, who knows? In the process we may actually be proud of ourselves for finding mechanisms where we can 1) appreciate our own strength;2) recognize that this is part of 'living'; 3) just be comfortable in our own skins for being able to acknowledge our own limits, and yet, be proud of our strengths.

Life isn't meant to be this complicated.  I sometimes wonder if 'mental illness' isn't one of these items that only serves to complicate something that was never intended to be complicated.  Presently, I'm working on enjoying life in its' moments.  I'm not looking too far ahead because that's not where I am right now.  Sometimes, it really does need to be 'moment by moment'.  That's where I am right now.  In a month's time, maybe I'll be able to look forward?  Who knows?

Here's what I do  know though -when I'm ready to look forward - I'll be sober because I "choose" to be sober.  :hug:


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## BluMac81 (Jan 14, 2010)

Violet said:


> Hey i think talking with your doctor who ordered your medication tell this doctor your addictive traits and slowly wean off them to something not addictive okay.  Substituting one addiction for another not wise and vicodin is a very strong medication one not to be fooled with.  Be honest with your doctor and get off them okay take care.  Just want to say nice to hear from you again BluMac81 take care.



Thank you all for your input.  Jazzey you especially said a lot the really cliked with me, thanks.  I should probably start going to NA meetings.  The reason why I quote Violet here is that I have a question for him in regards to his statement, its a technical question.  I do realize I need to get off of Vicodin and get back on my ACT (mindfulness) therapy training, however, I am afraid to tell my doctor that I am addicted because of things that he might do that are out of my control, such as put me in some locked away inpatient rehab program, I've done that before for other things and that was hellish.  Is it as simple as tapering off slowly?  Or should I do outpatient rehab?  Or inpatient?  With methadone/subox or without?  I am so scared about getting off this drug because 1. I'm afraid of the withdrawls 2. I don't know if I can seriously handle living a sober life with no artifical 'highs' now and then 3. Stuff that would be put on my medical record which would have even dentists asking whether I should be given novicane or not and 4. Possible DEA investigations or criminal drug charges put against me, and God knows I couldn't handle jail.  I'm just, afraid...God forgive me for being weak.


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## Jazzey (Jan 14, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> Thank you all for your input.  Jazzey you especially said a lot the really cliked with me, thanks.  I should probably start going to NA meetings.  The reason why I quote Violet here is that I have a question for him in regards to his statement, its a technical question.  I do realize I need to get off of Vicodin and get back on my ACT (mindfulness) therapy training, however, I am afraid to tell my doctor that I am addicted because of things that he might do that are out of my control, such as put me in some locked away inpatient rehab program, I've done that before for other things and that was hellish.  Is it as simple as tapering off slowly?  Or should I do outpatient rehab?  Or inpatient?  With methadone/subox or without?



Whatever it takes to get off of the drugs Blue....Honestly, anything to keep you or get you healthy again.



> I am so scared about getting off this drug because 1. I'm afraid of the withdrawls 2. I don't know if I can seriously handle living a sober life with no artifical 'highs' now and then 3. Stuff that would be put on my medical record which would have even dentists asking whether I should be given novicane or not



Yes, I can fully appreciate the fear.  But, your health depends on your honesty.  Think of the alternative Blue - dependency on a drug and, all of the risks associated.  I do not think that the decision is all that complicated when you look at it in this light. 



> and 4. Possible DEA investigations or criminal drug charges put against me, and God knows I couldn't handle jail.  I'm just, afraid...God forgive me for being weak.



No...You're a small fish in a very big, big pond. Unless you're dealing in the stuff, I do not believe that this is a likelihood Blue.  So now - be responsible for your health.  Take charge of your health.

You were candid enough to post about it tonight.  That tells me a few things. Amongst which 1)  you know it's time to give them up; 2) While you seem to defend the use of vicodin, you know that it's just another addiction for you - otherwise, you would not have posted tonight and 3)  I really believe that you're sick of this circular behaviour.  Again, mostly because I think that you would not have posted otherwise...

I'll look forward to you next post - the one where you tell us that you were honest with the prescribing doctor, that s/he did not renew any prescriptions for you and 3) that you've found peace and happiness in your life - through sobriety.


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## Melon Collie (Jan 14, 2010)

Blu, I gave your post quite a bit of thought (that's why I'm chiming in so late in the conversation.  LOL).  Before I answer I want to say that nobody here will judge you.  They don’t have that right as we all have our demons.  But in replying to your comments it may feel like you are being criticized or judged.

You made some interesting points, but I must assume however that the medical profession in general knows what they are doing and that there are good reasons that Vicodan and similar drugs are not used to treat the symptoms of mental illness even though people obviously feel better while taking them.  My guess would be the physical and psychological addictiveness of the drugs.  The problem with drugs used recreationally, self-administered to avoid bad feelings is that this particular demon disguises itself as a friend.  You welcome it because it makes you feel better.  

I do think that perhaps ER’s should take care in handing out narcotics.  They take a medical history upon admission and ask what meds a person is on.  They should also keep track of  a person’s visits, to see how frequently an individual comes in, for what reason and what meds are prescribed and even share this information with other hospitals in order to prevent drug-seeking behavior by addicts. 

I had a brief love affair with Talwin and decided to end it.  I was introduced by a ER doc who gave me two when I went in with a bad burn on my arm.  I wished he never gave it to me because it’s just in my nature to want more.  So when I had an abscessed tooth and my dentist wanted to give me Tylenol #3 for the pain I lied to him and said that codeine doesn’t work for me but that Talwin does.  So he prescribed me a big bottle…  Anyways, the purposes of this personal side note is to validate my post that I have a little experience in what you are talking about.

Take care of yourself!  and listen to Jazzey (sorry I couldn't resist writing that.)


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## forgetmenot (Jan 14, 2010)

Blu telling your doctor will not put you away it will set you free of the lies. Your doctor will know how to wean you off the medications. HE or she might think it safer to be in hospital while doing this but on a medical floor not a psych floor where you can be watched or in a detox floor either way the professionals will make sure you come off it safetly. I too would not worry about being put away or having criminal charges your information to your doctor is confidential not to be shared with anyone. With regards to having an addiction problem on your records it should be there already if you were honest so the next professionals treating you for whatever will be careful in prescribing the right medication for you.
Blu  no one is going to be critical of you they will be happy you came forward and are now seeking help they will see that as strength in your character.
Time to just take the step to start heading in the right direction now yes it will be hard but under the care of your doctor you can wean off vicodin and on to a different pain medication that is more suitable for you.  Take care Blu i know you can do this i have seen  your strength before.


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## BluMac81 (Jan 14, 2010)

Thanks all for your advise, I truly appreciate it.  I have a bit of plan to get off of Vicodin now, basically I'm just going to finish the rest of the bottle I have (only about 5 days left of it), then... I have some fake Vicodin shipped from India, which strangely, wards of withdrawl effects but at the same time does not provide any addictive euphoria, and with that, I will taper my dosage gradually, hopefully, without any outside help, as I honestly do not want 'addict' on my medical records

  However, if that does not work I will consult with my doctor regarding this matter, in total honesty, and use any program that he see's fit.  But yeah, I guess I made this post to kind of double check that my guilty feelings, my conscience was accurate considering the use of this drug, most of what you all said is what I have been telling myself.  If you're wondering why I'm going to continue using the 'rest of the bottle', it's simply because having it there while I'm detoxing would be way too tempting, and having no true vicodin will allow me to detox without temptation (because I will have none.)

  Sound good?  Either way, I acknowledge that I can no longer stay on this drug, and will do my best to live a sober life.  I'll start going to NA meeting if I need some extra support at times.  I will certainly miss the 'absent' feeling as you described, the high, but I need to find what others have found... a kind of 'high on life' feeling.  I'm ready to work on it!


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## Murray (Jan 14, 2010)

Hi BluMac81,
This is none of my business, I know, and I don't want to scare you, but when you mention that you are having some fake Vicodin shipped in from India. That just scares me to hear that. Is this going to be safe? I just worry when I hear of someone getting some fake version of a drug from overseas. Please just be careful. I am sorry if I offended you, but I am just concerned.


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## BluMac81 (Jan 14, 2010)

Yeah I understand your concern, and I was worried too when I started taking it, but having taken it for about a week, I experienced no ill effects from the drug.


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## forgetmenot (Jan 14, 2010)

I still think it is time to be honest with your doctors and get the help you will need to get off this medication and stay off them.  take care okay


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## BluMac81 (Jan 21, 2010)

I want to thank you all in your continuing support with my struggles that I have posted here.  Unfortunately, struggles like this do not fade quickly, it takes time, and I'm sure you all know that.  I want make a post now, especially about today, which essentially sums up my problem, that might help me organize my thoughts, or gain advise from you that would be helpful.  I will try to be as lucid, honest, and thorough as possible, without triggers being posted.  My goal in posting this is simply to find exactly what my problem is and how to go about fixing it.

  So, before I begin, it should be noted that it is now 1:15am, depressed and anxious feelings have subsided as I was able to attain ten 7.5/750 Vicodin.  This, I discovered today, is most likely the root of the aggravation of my depression.  

  From the top, I woke up today, 1/20, completely drained of energy, despite having slept for 10 or so hours.  Moving my body seemed to be an enormous task.  As the day went on, I became more and more distressed, because looking at all of my new belongings, I realized that I can not enjoy them unless, that is, I am on Vicodin.  But at first I was determined to abstain from Vicodin as I have recognized it's habitual dangers, little did I know how severely it would affect my mood once I stopped, I was not ready for this.  There is no reason, no explanation as to 'why' I was as depressed as I was today, but let's just say I was so depressed I thought countless times that I would rather be dead than to feel this way.  I felt alone, isolated from society, a burden on my loved ones, and everything and everybody in the world seemed harsh, kind of looking at the world through strormy sunglasses.  

  I called my AA buddy who has been ever so supportive and understanding in the past regarding my struggles, and it just so happened that she was experiencing her monthly PMDD (she has incredibly bad PMS.), and so, she could not come over to help me.  I became more suicidal, and so I decided to call the Veterans Suicide Hotline, and from there, I talked to an individual, who was very kind and patient with me.  My main questions for him were:  What do I do right now?  and... How long will this severe depression persist?  He did not know how long it would persist, but suggested that it is most likely either me withdrawling from Vicodin, me starting on Wellbutrin, or both.  He told me to be mindful and take everything I do one step at a time.  And I told him what I would do for the rest of the day, therein answering my own question: I would either get my AA buddy to come over and stay the night with me, or I would go to school to help distract me.  

  Before I did those, however, I received a callback from my psychiatrist (who I had left a message with earlier,) and he said that I should stop cold turkey from wellbutrin since I haven't taken it that long, and that he would put me on Abilify instead, along with Celexa.  He also asked if I was suicidal enough to go to Denver for inpatient care, you know, the psych ward, the place I absolutely hate and never does anything for me, and so, I lied and said I'm not having suicidal thoughts, even though I indeed was.

  I then called my AA buddy like I said I would, and she said I should go to school to help distract me.  But, the ever-increasing depression pushed me to a realization that there is only one quick fix for this, only one way to keep me from commiting suicide tonight, and that is to get more Vicodin.  For some reason, the drug balances my emotions, allows me to feel normal, enjoy life, etc.  However, this is a chicken before the egg argument, as it is possible that taking Vicodin to begin with gave me an addiction that would make it so I would only feel 'normal' when I was on the drug, and when off of it, feel severely depressed.  

  And so, with this in mind, I went up to the last hospital ER in town that had not given me Vicodin (and yes, I admit to doing the doctor shopping for fear of Vicodin withdrawl.)  I was not in physical pain that much, the mental pain was indeed excruciating, and deciding to drive there, and do something about it, actually made me feel a tad better... until, the doctor called my bluff.  It's the first time that it happened, and I was so incredibly humiliated, I hated myself.  She said 'Your story doesn't add up, I think you're a drug addict seeking more Vicodin, etc etc)', and while she was correct to some degree, she did not understand the deep mental pain I was experiencing and how Vicodin could indeed guarentee that I do not harm myself.  I felt wronged, but still loathed myself for what I had become. 

  In anger, frustration, and self-hate, I then walked out of the hospital, after 3 hours there, crying, and went to Albertsons to buy a serated knife, and then next door at the liquor store to buy steel reserve beer.  I felt like, 'well the world has given up on me, so I should give up on myself.'  After getting home, I did indeed self-injure, however, afterwards, I called my AA buddy again and she effectively talked me out of drinking the alcohol, I immediately threw it down the garbage chute.  

  And then I just sat there, not knowing what to do with myself, in complete agony and self-loathing.  I thought about different ways to kill myself, but immediately disguarded them as, in my heart of hearts, I do not want to die, and I am afraid of the unknown awaits for me in the afterlife, if there is one.  I prayed, I cried, I wished oh God let this end, give me a moment of relief at least.  I could not sleep, I could not concentrate, I could not move.  

  But finally, I stirred up my motivation enough to just go to the remaining hours of school.  But temptation reared it's head again and I saw an Emergicare that I haven't been to and right away tried again to get the Vicodin, and succeeded in getting ten 7.5/750, five of which I took a few hours ago, and the rest I will take tomorrow.  I did finish up an hour of school but my concentration level was non-existent.

  And so, I have come up with a hypothesis as to what is happening, and correct me if it doesn't sound right.  The Vicodin withdrawl I experienced on Jan 1st out in California included both physical pain and mental pain (depression and anxiety), because I stopped cold turkey from the drug.  However, the 'fake Indian' Vicodin strangely keeps the physical pain at bay while withdrawling, but does not give euphoria, and definitely does keep the mental (depression and anxiety) withdrawls in full force.  

  I just recently talked to my AA buddy, and she says that I just cannot handle this alone, and that I need help.  Outpatient or inpatient, I need help getting off this drug, because I cannot keep up with this supply that is needed to avoid withdrawls every month, and my tolerance will just get bigger and bigger, maybe to lethal amounts.  I have to get off of it, no matter how much I loved the feeling of that drug, I have to do it, or I will be a slave to it for the rest of my life.


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## Andy (Jan 21, 2010)

Well, I had a nice long reply to you but lost it again, so if someone else doesn't reply then I will try again later. As for now I am frustrated.


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## forgetmenot (Jan 21, 2010)

Blu as i tried to say in my previous post getting off this medication is very difficult and you need to be honest with you GP and psychiatrist and go in and get detox properly.
Quit thinking you can do this on your own you need professional  help so go in tell then what you said here and start the healing process now.  Just as getting off any addiction if you have the proper help you will be more successful in getting off and staying off whatever you are addicted to.  Only you can start the process by being open and honest with everyone time to own up to everything and just go get help.  Your worth it.   The longer you put off the inevitable the harder it will be to accomplish what you want.  
take care okay please just go get the help needed to get off them once and for all.


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## BluMac81 (Mar 19, 2010)

Hi everyone.  So you'll be happy to know that I am now detoxing off of Vicodin using Suboxone outpatient detox.  It has been going pretty good so far, though, that pill makes it hard for me to sleep for some reason.  I am also going daily to the VA substance abuse meetings, usually relapse prevention and AA/NA.  

  I had to go through some serious hell to finally put my foot down and nick this habit in the bud.  Last Tuesday I took too many and my liver started failing on me (or so it seemed).  I had the most horrific nausea I have ever felt in my life, vomiting up bile, dizzy every time I move, laying in the ER, helpless, while the Doctor sternly tells me that 'if you continue this addiction you will not live to see 30.'  Yeah that woke me up, so after a whole lot of tears and fears (because I felt horrible about myself, and was soooo afraid of withdrawl, and so afraid of going to inpatient again.)  Luckily some folks at the VA suggested Suboxone detox as an alternative and I was lucky and was able to find a good nearby psychiatrist to start treatment right away.  

  So, anyway, I've been taking some time away from school to take care of all of this.  This week has been THE most difficult week I've had in a decade.  I'm committed to staying sober now, it means my life.  Thanks everyone and I will check back later


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## forgetmenot (Mar 19, 2010)

I am glad to hear you are taking care of yourself good for you  School will be there when you get stronger  thanks for the update  Keep strong okay


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 19, 2010)

Good for you, BluMac. Sometimes it takes hitting bottom to really be able to see what embracing life again might look like. :2thumbs:


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## BluMac81 (Jun 30, 2010)

First a quick summary.  I'm totally clean, no vicodin for 3 months now, no alcohol for over a year.  And, I've been miserable since I've stopped.

I ask you this question:

Which is better, for a man to live in pain and sorrow until he disposes of himself, or for a man to live in bliss and peace until a drug disposes of himself?

Think about it.


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## Daniel (Jun 30, 2010)

> I've been miserable since I've stopped.



How so?  

If you are referring to having more anxiety, are you currently seeing a therapist?


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## David Baxter PhD (Jun 30, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> Which is better, for a man to live in pain and sorrow until he disposes of himself, or for a man to live in bliss and peace until a drug disposes of himself?
> 
> Think about it.


 
Don't have to think about it. Those are not your only options. Consequently, the question is meaningless.

Option 3: Get some help to identify why you miserable and take appropriate steps to change that. If you believe the only way to be happy is to be drug and alcohol addicted, you are guilty of seriously narrow, inflexible, and distorted thinking.


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## BluMac81 (Jun 30, 2010)

I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted.  However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps.  Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?  And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain. 

Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such?  Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me.  The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant.  I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.

That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure, so why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression.  Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that.  They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls.  It's the same with Vicodin!  How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine.  So why not use Vicodin in the same way?  I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.

Anyway, that's my thoughts.


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## Daniel (Jun 30, 2010)

> Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in  crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?


Compared to the alternative (which for many DBT patients is self-injury or addictions of various kinds), spending some time doing self-soothing relaxation techniques (like watching a comedy, calling a friend, or taking a warm bath) is an active coping mechanism.

In any case, DBT is focused on not running away from problems.  It's focused on "avoiding avoidance." Hence the cognitive emphasis on "radical acceptance" of what is happening and behavioral therapy for doing "opposite action" -- the opposite of running away even though one feels like it.  

Also:



> You are miserable and you know you need to  change.   The question is do you really want to change?  It sounds easy  but it  is a lot of work and sometimes  people (including me) just think  it is  easier to drop back into hell. Some people think suicide is an  option at this point...
> 
> http://forum.psychlinks.ca/psycholo...ds-to-pain-and-disappointment.html#post167318


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## Banned (Jun 30, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted. However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps.


 
Something WILL help, it's just a matter of figuring out what it is. Even the most hopeless cases of depression and anxiety can find relief through therapy, meds, ECT, whatever...it's very rare that there is absolutely no help. I think sometimes we think there is no help, or things will never change, so we don't even try. It's so much easier to throw our hands in the air and say "well, I did everything, and nothing helped." It's a journey...it's being persistent, and trying things long enough to give them a chance to help before giving up on them.



BluMac81 said:


> Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'? And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain.


 
Actually, your brain is capable of forming new neural connections, and being "retrained". Your brain can physically change as your thoughts guide it...it's kind of like a rewiring process. But, it doesn't happen overnight. It can take years. Most people don't just wake up one day with depression or PTSD. It happens over time, as does the healing. Dr. Baxter can say for sure, but I'm not sure there's anyone CBT can't help...it's just about seeing things differently, reshaping cognitive distortions into something realistic and accurate. Anyone can do that...but it's like riding a bike, or building a muscle...it takes time, and practice. Lots of time and lots of practice, but it definitely works.



BluMac81 said:


> Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such? Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me. The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant. I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.


 
So it's not that the CBT doesn't work...it's that you grow weary and give up. That is understandable, and part of the "muscle building"...to not give up...to keep pushing. I would say any advice anyone gets more often than not is temporary - it's contingent on the situation at hand, and that situation can change in a flash. The advice and involvement has to be flexible, to change with the situation.



BluMac81 said:


> That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure, so why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression. Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that. They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls. It's the same with Vicodin! How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine. So why not use Vicodin in the same way?


 
I dont' know enough about meds to comment on this, but I'm pretty sure the millions of dollars that go into research and development each year have probably looked at this option, and there are reasons why they've been ruled out. "Just a little vicodin tab"...how addictive was/is Vicodin for you? Advocating for something this addictive, to be mass-distributed, would be disasterous and the law suits would fly...



BluMac81 said:


> I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.


 
I don't know that depression can be permanently cured...but it can be effectively managed with a combination of medication, therapy, the right therapist, the right medication, and willingness on the part of the client. I would go so far as to say that if any of those pieces are missing or "deformed", then the prognosis for recovery would decrease either minimally or significantly. There's no "one size fits all" or overnight cure....it's ongoing management and perseverance.


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## David Baxter PhD (Jun 30, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> I do agree that thinking the only way to be happy is to be addicted to drugs and alcohol is narrow and distorted. However, what I said, that out of frustration at the numerous attempts to 'identify why I am miserable and take steps to change that', I've seen many different psycologists and psychiatrists for about 6 years now, and nothing helps.


 
You were an addict in denial throughout most of that time. For that reason alone, it is premature to conclude that nothing helps.



BluMac81 said:


> Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when in crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?


 
No. That is not focusing on distorted and destructive thoughts and thereby giving them power and letting them control you.



BluMac81 said:


> And in CBT I can not change my thoughts just as I cannot change my brain.


 
In fact, you can change your thoughts with CBT. And there is some evidence CBT (and certain medications) do change your brain, or at least parts of it.



BluMac81 said:


> Anxiety isn't a problem anymore because I use xanax 6mg/day, don't you think there should be some alternative to medicating depression than SSRI's and such?


 
First, why do you need an alternative? Second, if you need alternatives, they exist.



BluMac81 said:


> Depression is the problem, I am consumed by it and it gets worse by the day, I can only see psych therapists and psyhiatrists every 3 months because the VA is understaffed, but still I try and do what they tell me. The majority or maybe all of the advise given is temporary, not permanant. I can train my mind to catch myself thinking negative thoughts for maybe a week or so, after that, the internal battle becomes too much, and a I succumb to the thoughts.


 
Because you stilol think like an addict...



BluMac81 said:


> That other doctor, a civilian psychiatrist, told me that the actual cure to depression is stimulating the opiate receptors, in other words, opiates are the cure


 
No. They are not. At best, the benefits are short term and they make the crash worse when it comes.



BluMac81 said:


> why does the government not even consider them for aids for depression. Just a little vicodin tab, not heroin or anything like that.


 
Because they don't help depression.



BluMac81 said:


> They already perscribe benzos like xanax which are really just as bad as vicodin when you think about it, you tolerance goes up and up and up, and if you stop abrubtly you get withdrawls. It's the same with Vicodin! How I use my xanax, which perscribed 6mg/day, is I usually stick with 1 mg every couple hours just for a maintenance dose (to avoid withdrawl) and if I know I'll be doing something anxiety provoking (like going to wal mart, the dmv, a new class, etc.) I can take 3-4 mg's and I am just fine.


 
If you are developing or have developed a toilerance for Xanax, then you are not a good candidate for that drug. You have simply substituted one addiction for another.



BluMac81 said:


> So why not use Vicodin in the same way? I am not convinced that psychology nor psychiatry can permanatly stop depression, it's just like medication, it's a few moments of relief.


 
No, it's not just a few moments of relief. You can learn to change the way you think, change the way your brain reacts to things, and thereby learn to manage the tendencies toward and the symptoms of depression. Thousands if not millions of people have been successful in doing this. Why haven't you been successful? Because you are still thinking like and addict... lokking for that quick fix. It takes patience and consistent effort.


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## Banned (Jun 30, 2010)

BluMac81 said:


> First a quick summary. I'm totally clean, no vicodin for 3 months now, no alcohol for over a year. And, I've been miserable since I've stopped.
> 
> I ask you this question:
> 
> ...



As human beings, we have alot of power.  Physical power.  Emotional power.  Spiritual power.  

I'm not sure I'd want to give my emotional power over to something destructive like addiction.  I would prefer to remain in control of my thoughts, my actions, my behaviours.

As Dr. Baxter says, it's not "either or".  There is the third option...which is to find that balance to live life as healthily as possible.  My thoughts regarding meds are "as little as possible but as much as needed"...so dont' overdo it, but don't rob yourself of the chance to be well by taking little, none, or the wrong thing altogether.


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## BluMac81 (Jun 30, 2010)

Thanks everyone, I will spend some time contemplating on what you said, and how to apply it to my life.


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## Daniel (Jul 13, 2010)

BluMac81 said:
			
		

> Well, there are steps in DBT that help, namely, distraction (when  in  crisis), but isn't that 'running away from your problems'?


Regarding this interesting point you made about distraction being potentially overdone, it is a valid point when someone is outside of crisis mode:



> Some of the effective anti-rumination strategies— socializing and exercising, for example, are intrinsically antidepressant in nature, and most people would benefit from devoting more time to them. On the other hand, some of the activities— like playing games and watching videos—are valuable mostly because they happen to provide a momentary distraction from upsetting thoughts.
> 
> As we've seen, [a] bit of distraction can be enormously helpful.  But when the strategy is used too often, it can turn into full-blown avoidance...
> 
> The Depression Cure: The 6-Step ... - Google Books


Similarly, Marsha Linehan makes the point that if one is in crisis mode all the time, that's not a crisis -- that's one's life (in need of a few repairs).


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## Banned (Jul 13, 2010)

> Similarly, Marsha Linehan makes the point that if one is in crisis mode all the time, that's not a crisis -- that's one's life (in need of a few repairs).


 
This is an excellent point - thank you!


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## BluMac81 (Dec 11, 2010)

Hello everybody!  I've come back here just to update on my progress and how things are going.  I figured I mind as well pick up on the last problem I had.  Things are actually going very well.  I am drug and alcohol free, and yet I actually feel moments of happiness with greatly decreased bouts of depression (it may have come with the new medication I'm on, Effexor, as well as daily doses of vitamin D.)  hehehe, it's hard to write when there is nothing to complain about!  I'm going to university in January, full time and in person, with my planned majors of both Psycology and Biology (Human Focus.)  I can't wait to get started, this semester I take: Philosophy: Politics and Law, English 2 Rhetoric and Writing, Anthropology, Chemistry, and Psycology Profession.  I find that I am less self-concious as of late, I feel more secure with who I am, and certainly do not hate myself anymore.  

     I really wanted to share something with you all, especially those dealing with drug & alcohol problems.  When I started on vicodin, I of course used it as a means to escape the depression and anxiety I was always feeling.  I decided to ignore the stigmas and general warnings about pain killers and addiction that society had put out there.  I learned that there is a time and place to fight society's laws and regulations.  I scoffed at the 'vicodin addiction' law and view that it was an illness because I believed in results of the present moment, while I disregarded the wisdom of law.  Laws are not out there to hold you down or keep you in your place, they are there to protect you.  It's only logical that a conclusion (law) generated by a great number of people, to include highly educated people as well as people throughout history and the study of the lessons learned from that history, that conclusion has a strong reason for it.  The strong reason for vicodin was that one cannot maintain the ever-increasing drug tolerance levels while still being in good health physically and mentally.  Not only that, but fearing being WITHOUT the drug or alchohol, and the withdrawls that might come, puts you in a place that can not be described as anything but slavery.  You are a slave to the drug because you are afraid of living without it (essentially, the withdrawls + living without your high.)  So, when you run out of the drug, you in turn become desperate, and it is in the desperateness that crimes are committed and morals are pushed aside.  I was quite a goody-goody and very quiet and introverted all my life until the drug caught me.  The lies I had to tell doctors in order to get the drug were almost as bad as the begging I did to get the drug from street dealers.  I was ashamed of myself every single time, but I kept on doing it, and that shame built itself up more and more to the point where my very existence was defined by that drug.  It's a terrible place to be, so dependent on something that can let you down so easily.  

     Anyway, I apologize if that was hard to understand, for some reason, it's just hard to put into words, but it's the best that I can do.  Keep on truckin you all and thanks again for all of the help you have given me, and others in this community. =)

-Matt


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## Andy (Dec 11, 2010)

That is so good to hear BluMac! 

I bet it's really nice to be on the flip side of all that you were going through.

That's great that your heading back to school again as well. I wish you all the best with that.:2thumbs:


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## forgetmenot (Dec 11, 2010)

Good to hear from you
  So happy you are doing well and off all the drugs and alcohol  great job.
 You write very well and clear and you give hope to others that are struggling by being a slave to whatever addictions they have. 
 Thank you for the update it helps to see someone win against the mental illness  they endure as well 
 take care of you okay and enjoy your university wishing you all the best


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