# Attracting women



## bookstar

Hello,

Most of my dating life I have attracted women that I have had to settle with and have reflected my self-image/esteem. I have attracted women that were not particularily beautiful to society nor had high self-esteem. I have gone through 2 divorces and I am only 32.

I am actually a very attractive guy physically yet I have always struggled in attracting beautiful women (physically) with high self esteem. To me it seems like an oxy-moron in the sense that you would think that me being attractive that I could have any woman I want (that is single of course), yet I do not.

It really hurts my self image when I go out in public and not get noticed or hit on. Even when I am at events or parties, I never get approached or even if I approach, I seem to never attract who I want to attract.

Why? Like I said, I am a very attractive guy (I am not saying this of my own accord but in my past I have had many people tell me so) and besides I am an ex face model. 

I am a very nice guy that does not act cocky or like I am better then everyone else. I act very normal. Yet all my life I struggled getting the type of gorgeous women I so desire because of some unknown mystical reason I guess.

I have heard that a lot of better then average guys struggle with this same thing and I just don't understand why. At the same time I see not so attractive guys attracting unbelievably gorgeous women all the time. I'm not saying that they don't deserve the same thing as attractive people, but common sense would say that the more attractive would obviously attract more of what they want. Am I not right? No, I am not according to my own life. Sometimes I wonder if I was born ugly that I wouldn't be having this issue and I would have the woman of my dreams right now. I feel I am cursed towards women, like there is a big invisible gaurd that is blocking beautiful women from ever coming into my life.

I don't want to settle like I have in my past. I really need help with this. How do I attract any woman I desire? What is the secret of the kings of women? Please help if you can.

thanks everyone ;o)

Aaron


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## David Baxter PhD

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

The secret is simple: Watch the movie _Shallow Hal_.

There are very few people, male or female, who have the kind of surface beauty that endures, at least without medical intervention. The problem is not the women you are with - it's your belief that they are in various ways "less than" what you want. 

You really need to focus less on the superficial and more on substance.


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## stargazer

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

I agree with David.  I would also add that you might want to look into your motivations and ask yourself why it is that you should feel that the women you attract need to be physically beautiful.  What exactly are you looking for in a woman or in a relationship?


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## rebecca8

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

From a woman's perspective with a slightly similar issue, I've found in general that many so called attractive men are not so friendly. (of course there are exceptions) Same goes for "gorgeous" women if you've ever noticed. 
Some people are just more approachable than others. And some people expect to be the ones who are approached. In my old fashioned opinion, I think the man should approach the woman, but not everyone will agree with that these days. I sometimes feel like I will have to settle too, but I think it's because I don't know how to play the game. I have to admit that women often try to act aloof, and I can tell that men try to do the same now. How are we ever going to get what we want? I CAN tell you that a woman will most often make eye contact if she is interested. Men need to fine tune their observational skills when it comes to this sometimes. Usually, guys play this game as if it has points that can be tallied. The more women you ask, they more likely one will say yes. Arrgh, this bugs me because I want to feel like I'm the pick of the litter. Every woman does. Even the beautiful ones, however, you may be able to intrigue this type more if you try to talk to them about something that will appeal to their intelligence, or other aspects of their personality. (be genuine of course) They may be pleasantly surprised, and take more of an interest in you because often they become sick of guys drooling over their physical features.


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## Daniel

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*



			
				bookstar said:
			
		

> ...not particularily beautiful to society...



Most people couldn't care less who you date or marry.   Even if you cared what they thought, the tropy wife isn't what she used to be:

Psychology Today: The New Trophy Wife


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## Into The Light

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

bookstar, does a woman's personality not interest you at all?


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## bookstar

*The people who attract almost everyone!*

Hello again,

I am wondering what the difference is between a handsome man such as myself who has a very hard time attracting women, and the guy(s) that may or may not be physically attractive (doesn't matter either way) yet they seem to attract women everywhere they go. It is mind boggling to me. It makes me feel like I am missing something. I feel I act just as they do around women. So I ask, what do these types of men have that a guy like me does not have? 

What makes a man so attractive to women that he seems to be like "The Fonze" on Happy Days? 

I realize it is self-confidence but it goes deeper then that because I show self-confidence also.

It kills me to see the less physically attractive guy getting all the attention from women. Some guys just seem to attract women effortlessly. 

I feel it is a paradox!!!!

Any ideas?
Thanks!


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## rebecca8

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*

I think EVERYONE has insecurities, so there is that intimidation factor of a good looking person. It works both ways for men and women. Guys used to tell me before they got to know me that they were intimidated by me because of the way I look (which in my eyes isn't that spectacular, BUT you know that saying.............beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have an older friend who says he was a very good looking guy in his day. I think he still is, but he tells me that for every 10 girls than thought he was attractive, there were another 10 who thought not so much. He also pointed out that he was the type of person who talked to anyone, and also made a goof out of himself to make people laugh. He said people just gravitated toward him. I guess he was just really likeable. He still is, but I guess with age came some reservations. 
One more thing which is easier said than done. Believe me because people tell me this ALL the time. They say, "You're thinking too much!" I believe that people can pick up on certain non-verbal cues. Body language for example. We are so much more in tune with one another than we think. I wish I knew the answer too because I'm painfully shy in social situations. I wish I knew how to just relax.


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## Daniel

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

BTW, in addition to _Shallow Hal_, I would recommend the movie _Shopgirl_, which is less directly relevant but has some good themes.   The guy who is less romantically attractive upon initial inspection (broke, not sophisticated, and loose around the edges) is eventually favored over the guy who seems to have it all (lots of money, power, charm, etc.) because the guy who is broke actually cares about the girl in a deep way and it shows.   Similarly, there are many research studies that show that women have different preferences when it comes to initial attraction vs. long term relationships, with qualities like empathy and loyalty as important attractors for the long term.


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## Mari

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*



> beauty is in the eye of the beholder



True enough. I was trying to think of a word yesterday that describes a person I am attracted to and the word I came up with is 'affable'. An odd word but I think it fits although relationships are so much more complicated than that. :heart: Mari


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## xenopath

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*

Attractiveness is hugely relative, and in my experience adaptability is the key to ingratiating yourself with others. Adopt a persona in sync with theirs, feign interest in their interests, and befreind their freinds. If you have an opportunity to meet or observe their family, you can often make yourself highly attractive by adopting the mannerisms or look of a close family member of the opposite sex, playing into their unconcious oedipal desires. Basically, be what they are looking for.


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## Into The Light

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*

i think you are overgeneralizing when you say _all_ women are attracted to these men. i think people are highly diverse and what one woman might find incredibly attractive in a man might not be attractive to another woman. some women are attracted to the shy, quiet type, other women are attracted to the life of the party, some women are attracted to power and money (and hence not really the person himself?), etc. 

personally, i find a person becomes more attractive or less attractive based on their personality. i've met people that seemed average but once i got to know them better they just seemed more attractive. the opposite has happened too. i've met people that at first glance i thought to be very attractive, but negative attitude or behaviour made them less handsome or pretty.


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## sunset

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*

Charisma, how they handle themselves, their personalities all play a part in being attracted to the opposite sex. I have had HUGE crushes on some guys that others would not even look at, but I found some quality, trait or whatever to be to my liking. 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and what you may think is attractive, others may not, or just not as much.. Its all relative like someone mentioned.


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## rebecca8

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

There's a sticky above that gives you advice on how to approach "hot" women. Maybe it will help.
I have to admit though, this topic has brought up some issues for me. I can sort of understand bookstar's problem, and am trying to read between the lines, but I now wonder, are men more intent on finding an attractive partner than women? I've noticed on TV, movies, even listening in on conversations among other guys that this seems to be something very important to them. Sometimes, I feel so disappointed.........let down, that the opposite gender can be so shallow.(this can go both ways, but I'm talking from a women's view of the world) I start to wonder why, and have come up with a few ideas. MEDIA! Maybe everyone has been brainwashed to think you have more worth if you have an exceptionally beautiful shell. Personally I think many people have become afraid of what's deeper inside of others because it may force us to confront what's inside ourselves, and oh gee that can take some painful work..........which many people don't want to do these days so we distract ourselves with the external. 
I once read something a "player" wrote. He said that he loved going out and meeting beautiful women, but he would never commit because he knew there would always be another one more beautiful and more exciting waiting around the corner. This made me so mad/sad. What if women were more like that? (or are they? I really don't know)How would a man feel? I wish I could give these guys a taste of there own medicine, but I don't have the heart for that. Plus, in their eyes I would not be considered their type. I'm more simple and natural. The guy I was in love with once told me that I was the most REAL girl he'd ever met. I took it as a great compliment, but wondered why he didn't snatch me up then. I've been struggling with a lot of insecurities, and sometimes fall into a trap where I start to think I'm not pretty enough, fun enough, or whatever. Just Sunday, I had this guy I'm dating (i think) tell me I should wear my hair down. I explained that it's curly and I'm too broke to get a nice flattering haircut, so it doesn't look nice down right now. He told me I should buy a hair straightener. I have something against hair straightening because I think whatever you were born with you should work with that, not try to change it. Uh, and duh, I just told him I was broke......he wasn't listening (which makes a guy less attractive to me as well) I wish I could find someone who likes me just the way I am, and wouldn't change a thing. Is that the way it's supposed to be, or am I expecting too much? Well, thanks for listening to my rantings. I think it's just my insecurities surfacing again.


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## David Baxter PhD

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*



> I now wonder, are men more intent on finding an attractive partner than women?



No, I think both men and women want "an attractive partner". No one starts out by saying, "What I really want to do is to find an unattractive life partner, i.e., someone I'm not attracted to at all - that would be ideal".

But of course the issue is, what does that mean? Someone I find attractive may not be attractive at all to someone else. Beauty really is in the eye of the beholder.

Additionally, it's not solely about surface physical attraction. I have known and even dated some "magazine attractive" women in my time, and some of those had nothing to offer - in my perception of course - than surface beauty. There was nothing to sustain a relationship there for me, which of course is why I didn't last long with them (or vice versa).


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## stargazer

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*



rebecca8 said:


> Men need to fine tune their observational skills when it comes to this sometimes.



I've been following the thread and reading the posts, but I've been hesitant to put in my two cents lest it become too controversial.

However, since this has come up twice now (once here, and once with a female friend of mine on AIM), I want to propose that in my experience, a lot of men are simply a lot more insecure than they will let on.

I know that when I was younger, and very physically fit, and probably handsome -- at least from what I'm told, and from what early photographs of me would seem to reveal -- a lot of the young women were giving me "signals," and a lot of my platonic female friends were even cuing me in to the fact that these women were interested in me.  But I simply didn't believe what my eyes were telling me.  I wouldn't trust my own observations, because my self-esteem was so low in this area that I could not believe that any of these women could actually be interested in me.

So, while I think it may be true that men need to "fine tune" their observational skills, I think it's often also the case that men don't trust the observational skills that they do have, because they are too insecure to believe that women whom they observe to be interested in them could actually be interested in *them.*

Also, this insecurity is often covered up with a huge facade, which male bonding (among similarly insecure men) only serves to fortify.  

In fact, all my relationships (prior to the one I'm involved with today) have been initiated by the woman, because I was so shy and insecure.  And usually the woman is not the aggressor, so I didn't usually wind up with the woman I would want to be involved with.  

Now, however, I have initiated the relationship because I know what I want, and I want it so strongly, that it is over-riding my shyness for once.  I hope it continues to happen this way.



Into The Light said:


> bookstar, does a woman's personality not interest you at all?



Very good question, that.  I'm glad somebody asked it.


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## Retired

*Re: The people who attract almost everyone!*



> Adopt a persona in sync with theirs



This to me is the key to making friends and to integrate socially.  It's all about sensing the needs and style of the other person, and removing the focus from oneself.

People love to know others are interested in them.  When entering into a social situation, the one should forego their own need for recognition, and focus on the need of the other person.  When successful, this strategy should jumpstart a dialogue.

Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, but as Casey Stengel used to say, "If you don't swing, you'll never hit."


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## rebecca8

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*

Thanks stargazer for your honesty and insight. I sure have been naive in believing the cover up of many a guys insecurity. I'll try to keep that in mind, so I don't my get my feelings hurt quite as often. I had always suspected, but some of the guys I've known have put on a pretty impressive show. 
 You said that you know what you want now. I've heard that before, well, it was more like so and so doesn't know what he wants yet. This may sound like a dumb question, but what does that mean? I've taken it so personally when it came to this guy I liked soooooo much, and he told me he liked me a lot too, but then fleed. Is it also a question of knowing who you are?


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## stargazer

*Re: Attracting specific type of women*



rebecca8 said:


> You said that you know what you want now. I've heard that before, well, it was more like so and so doesn't know what he wants yet. This may sound like a dumb question, but what does that mean? I've taken it so personally when it came to this guy I liked soooooo much, and he told me he liked me a lot too, but then fleed. Is it also a question of knowing who you are?



Rebecca, I want to make sure I'm not giving you the wrong impression.  It's not that I myself have any super-confidence causing me to know what I want, it's just that I'm almost 55 years old, and by now a human being has developed an idea of who s(he) is, what his or her limitations and needs are, and what will probably work or not work. 

So I guess I would say that yes, it's by and large a matter of knowing who you are, and of finding the person or type of person who is going to be able to identify that as well, and accept it, enjoy it, and vice-versa.

I used not to believe there was any such a thing as "compatibility," because I figured all relationships take work (which of course they do) and that if two people worked hard enough, they'd be able to get along.  I figured that if they didn't work at it, then no matter how "compatible" they are, it wouldn't work anyway.

While this makes a certain amount of sense, I now think that there are personality types that are inherently incompatible with each other, and that there are those that are.  Life is only so long, so you might as well find someone who is compatible with you, and increase your chances.

But I think I'm going off on a tangent now.  Anyway, I hope that helps.  I am by no means advanced in this subject, and I consider myself blessed that Beth and I are finally getting back together, because we always were so compatible, and we never seemed to fight over anything.

So, maybe it's a good idea for you to be more on the lookout for men with whom you will hit it off, then to worry about whether or not you are being rejected or accepted right off the bat.


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## bookstar

*Will It Happen If I Change My Attitude?*

Hello,

I have struggled most of my life with attracting beautiful women (My type I am attracted to both physically and mentally/emotionally), not because I am not attractive, as I am very attractive since I am a former face model.

I have struggled with my self-esteem most of my life and to this day I struggle with thoughts of feeling inferior and not good enough towards a specific type of women. I have had issues with my height (I am 5'7"), my status (money and position), and just plain feeling inferior to to other guys, even if I may be physically more attractive.

So as a result whenever I see a beautiful woman, I actually get angry at her because I am jealous for not having her and then I think in my mind that if I were to give her attention, she would think I am not good enough for someone like her.

So it has been my thoughts and attitude towards women all these years which is probably the reason I have never attracted the type of women that is considered my ideal. I never have approached them because of the way I feel about myself and the way I think they will feel about me.

Yes, I have attracted women in my life. I have been married and I have had many girlfriends, but almost none of them have been what I have been truely looking for both physically and emotionally. I have always gone for women that I feel good enough for, and not towards what I really want.

It kills me to see so many men in this world get exactly the type of woman I have always wanted to attract in my life. I get so jealous of that. The icing on the cake is the fact that these guys are normally no better looking or higher in position then I am, yet they have attracted exactly what I have always wanted to attract.

So my remedy is to change my attitude and fear thoughts towards beautiful women, along with increasing my self-esteem and not feeling insecure any longer, and my theory is finally I will start to automatically attract beautiful women into my life. They will be automatically attracted to me and start to appear in my life in different ways.

Right now I almost feel that women are for some reason turned off by me. It seems when I am at a group or event setting that women never approach me or when I talk to them I sense they are not interested in me. I feel I have been cursed with something that unattracts women, that it is my destiny to never be happy with the opposite sex. I am now starting to understand that maybe I have a bad vibration towards women and they can sense this and are automatically turned off by me.

Like I mentioned earlier, I am not even close to being ugly physically, and I am not poor or have a bad, stuck-up personality, yet I struggle harder then I feel most guys do in attracting women.

I am looking for more ideas of what I need to do to start attracting women into my life. what have I been doing wrong? What must I do to be like so many other guys out there that practically can go into any crowd full of single women and choose whom they would like to be with and be successful.

Thank you for all of your inputs and help!!! ;o)


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## moonriver

Would there be anything wrong with being single for awhile and just taking the time to figure out exactly what it is that you really want? Could you talk to some of the women that you have dated and find out what they think was missing, maybe ask some of your friends?

I think its good to have goals and know what you wan but are you sure that you really want a relationship with a beautiful woman or do you think you need that to impress someone? Couldnt you be equally happy with someone that was still attractive but had a beautiful soul or a kind heart?  Thats what I would like but I know that what I am looking for might not be the right thing for anyone else.  I find that those are the kind of people that are most attractive to me now, the bad boys or the super good looking guy that knows he is super good looking often only ends in heartache for me. Maybe it would be different for you, but dont you think that may be missing out on something by overlooking people that may not fit your beauty ideal?


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## Daniel

I'm still really confused as to how many women you even talk to.  

Have you tried online dating?  What about just trying to make more friends, with the long-term goal of finding someone by having a larger social network?


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## Lana

Hi Bookstar;

Sometimes, physical looks don't quite cut it when it comes to attracting people or forming relationships.  If you put too much value into that, and not enough into who you are, as an individual, that imbalance may cause some trouble.

When I read your post I understood that you're very attractive, but that you had a great deal of insecurity about yourself, your status, and finances.  I find, that people that are happy with themselves, are approachable and at ease, are the most attractive.  So much so, that often, I can't tell if they're good looking or not (and I don't really care), I just know that they make me feel good when I'm in their company.  Those are the people that I want to be with.  That is the draw, the magnetism, the appeal.  Looks don't even enter the equation.

Now, if I meet someone that is angry, or insecure, my nurturing instinct kicks in.  I want to help them find happiness.  I use what I learned from others and apply it.  I am happy, I am healthy, I am content with my life and my self (well, most of the time  ) and that is what I project at them.  You say you feel anger when you see an attractive woman.  what if you felt happy instead?  Just happy to see her.  Curious to know more about her.  Warm and fuzzy because she is who she is.  What do you think would happen?  Give it a try.

Someone suggested feigning interest or adopting a personality to fit with them...I'm not sure I agree because to me, it implies being false.  That may get their attention initially, may even get something started, but it is not sustainable.  Eventually, true self surfaces and then everyone gets hurt.  He says, "I did this and that FOR her" and she cries "It was all a lie, he pretended to be the person I fell for".  

I still feel that being comfortable in your own skin is the key.  The benefits of that are enormous on so many levels.  Why do some, apparently, unattractive men get the gorgeous women?  Because they help women feel gorgeous.  Because they like who they are.  Because they have genuine and sincere interest in women, and men, as individuals, not as someone to save them.  Bottom line, you have to like yourself.  If you can't like or love yourself, how can you expect others to?

I know what I'm suggesting is not simple.  But, if you can do this, even if you have to pretend at first, I'm willing to bet that you'll be able to share a plesant interchange.  Once you're more confortable, it'll grow into conversation.  And so on.  Don't worry about your looks, status, or finances, those will take care of themselves.   Focus on liking yourself first, and getting ot know the other person.  Self appreciation and love, as simple as they seem, are not always so simple


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## stargazer

Lana said:


> I find, that people that are happy with themselves, are approachable and at ease, are the most attractive.



I agree with Lana. 

I recently had the unsettling experience of going on a "blind date" -- that is, I met a woman on the Internet who lived near me, and who liked me on the basis of an email exchange, and I her.  We knew without seeing each other that we wanted to date.

As soon as she showed up, I could not help but notice that she was unusually beautiful -- so much so, that I got so unexpectedly nervous that I could no longer maintain the self-confidence to which she was so attracted.  

Although she was courteous enough not to leave in the middle of the date (as in, leave a note when I went to the bathroom, etc.) I'm pretty sure I'm never going to see her again, unfortunately.

My point is, when I was overtaken by her physical beauty, I forgot for the moment the reason why I was attracted to her in the first place.  So, the more realistic basis for attraction fell by the wayside, and she probably left thinking I was just another gawking guy, so to speak.



Lana said:


> Bottom line, you have to like yourself.  If you can't like or love yourself, how can you expect others to?



Right on.  And I think that, at least in my case, my liking of myself is intermittent, and not continuous.  That date proved it.  So, the goal is to develop a healthy enough self-esteem that it won't be destroyed by the arrival of the unexpected.


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## music dad

Just on the tail end of this thread... directed to the initial thread starting person on this topic...(for lack of better words)
 When you are out looking....on the prowl.....for whatever reason I'm sure there is many, I find that it is much more difficult to attract the opposite sex (or same if so inclined)..being politically correct(trying) When you are not looking..it always seems.the flood gates open. I think self confidence is easily picked up by the oposite sex...when either not looking or in a relationship the need isn't there, the void isn't there the confidence is


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## Lana

I think there's some truth in what you say, Music Dad.  BUT...  ... I'm not sure that self confidence is what attached folks exude.  I think that what makes attached people attractive to others is this:

1. There is this (absurd, I think) notion where people think that says you're good relationship material because you're already in a relationship.  Those looking want a piece of that.

2. Some may be in some "competition" with the person you're attached to.  I've actually had that experience.  When my husband and I began dating (college days, many many moons ago), one girl had the audacity to say in front of me, "what does she have that I don't?"  (he answered, "me") another went further by saying "why would you choose a pork chop over a filet mignon" (while I was gasping from shock, he casually said "I love pork!")  

3. I have doubts that people that are attracted to someone attached are actually looking to be attached themselves.  Attached people are safe.  That means, they can't threaten a persons livelihood, their personal freedom, ask for commitment, and so on.  

4. The old adage: "Some always want what they can't have"

5. It's the thrill of breaking a huge taboo..."but he/she is with someone else!"

6. In some cases, attached people seek out other people because they're either unwilling or unable to deal with issues in their immediate relationship.  This can spawn a whole new set of issues: transference and projection being a couple of them.  Or, rather then deal with issues, they look for an escape.  Either way, it's not pretty.

So...be careful if you're attached and someone is whispering sweet nothings in your ear.  The best way to attract others is to form a relationship with yourself and like yourself.  Not only will you attract people, you will also have the wits about you to decide if what you attracted is good for you or not.  It won't be a problem to say, and believe, "I deserve more".  And you really do.  No one should have to settle or steal.


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## xenopath

Relationships are a game. People go wrong by taking them to be something more significant. Learn the rules, learn how to manipulate the rules to your advantage, and you win. Simple as that.


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## Halo

I happen to disagree with you Xenopath.  I don't think that relationships are a game at all.  Games are about winning and losing and relationships don't have anything to do with that.  You don't win or lose someone...you _build _a relationship with someone.  You don't manipulate the rules or anyone to your advantage in order to win or get them.  In my opinion relationships are built on mutual trust, honesty and compassion.


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## David Baxter PhD

And I'm going to agree with Halo and also disagree with you.



> Relationships are a game. People go wrong by taking them to be something more significant. Learn the rules, learn how to manipulate the rules to your advantage, and you win. Simple as that.



That's a recipe for short-term "relationships" where one or both people use the other person, but it's definitely not a recipe for a successful long-term relationship.


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## stargazer

Halo said:


> Games are about winning and losing and relationships don't have anything to do with that.  You don't win or lose someone...you _build _a relationship with someone.  You don't manipulate the rules or anyone to your advantage in order to win or get them.  In my opinion relationships are built on mutual trust, honesty and compassion.



I agree with Halo.  A relationship actually _fail_ when one or the other parties treats it is a game -- it then becomes a competition, rather than a partnership.


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## xenopath

Halo said:


> I happen to disagree with you Xenopath.  I don't think that relationships are a game at all.  Games are about winning and losing and relationships don't have anything to do with that.  You don't win or lose someone...you _build _a relationship with someone.  You don't manipulate the rules or anyone to your advantage in order to win or get them.  In my opinion relationships are built on mutual trust, honesty and compassion.



Relationships are about getting what you want from someone else, be that money, comfort, sex or emotions. Games aren't always competative, and two people looking for the same thing from one another can play a cooperative relationship game.



David Baxter said:


> That's a recipe for short-term "relationships" where one or both people use the other person, but it's definitely not a recipe for a successful long-term relationship.



Not all relationships need be long term. If you can get what you want quickly, why hang around?



stargazer said:


> I agree with Halo.  A relationship actually _fail_ when one or the other parties treats it is a game -- it then becomes a competition, rather than a partnership.



All human interaction is essentially competition. Sometimes its friendly and mutually beneficial, other times its not.


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## Halo

xenopath said:


> Relationships are about getting what you want from someone else, be that money, comfort, sex or emotions. Games aren't always competative, and two people looking for the same thing from one another can play a cooperative relationship game.



I completely disagree with you Xenopath.  Relationships are not only about getting what you want from someone else.  Relationships are about a mutual give and receive for the benefit of both parties.  It is not all about what you can get from someone else the quickest.  That would be using someone and not caring about their feelings.  In my opinion you may want to look up the real meaning of the word "relationship".



xenopath said:


> Not all relationships need be long term. If you can get what you want quickly, why hang around?



You are right that not all relationships need to be long term however again it is not about getting what you want quickly and getting out.  That is called a one night stand and not a relationship.


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## David Baxter PhD

xenopath said:


> Relationships are about getting what you want from someone else, be that money, comfort, sex or emotions.



Absolutely false. No healthy relationship is like that.



xenopath said:


> Not all relationships need be long term. If you can get what you want quickly, why hang around?



That's not a relationship. That's exploitation.



xenopath said:


> All human interaction is essentially competition. Sometimes its friendly and mutually beneficial, other times its not.



Not true. You need to look at some of the research on philanthropy. You also need to take a careful look at your attitudes toward interpersonal relationships, in my opinion. They are extremely distorted and egocentric.



Halo said:


> I completely disagree with you Xenopath.  Relationships are not only about getting what you want from someone else.  Relationships are about a mutual give and receive for the benefit of both parties.  It is not all about what you can get from someone else the quickest.  That would be using someone and not caring about their feelings.  In my opinion you may want to look up the real meaning of the word "relationship".
> 
> You are right that not all relationships need to be long term however again it is not about getting what you want quickly and getting out.  That is called a one night stand and not a relationship.



Absolutely right.


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## stargazer

Xenopath, it may well be the case that human beings have a naturally competitive aspect, connected to our survival instinct.  However, for an enduring relationship to succeed, a certain amount of self-sacrifice needs to be involved.  The very idea of a relationship is that two people make a commitment to a partnership -- not a game in any sense.  I think you think you are expressing an outlook of "enlightened self-interest," but I really take exception to the idea that this applies to human relationships in general, much less intimate ones.

In fact, I would venture to say that intimacy and "game-playing" (which you seem to think is not competetive, for some reason) are mutually exclusive.  How can you maintain true intimacy with someone with whom you are playing games?


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## xenopath

Halo said:


> I completely disagree with you Xenopath.  Relationships are not only about getting what you want from someone else.  Relationships are about a mutual give and receive for the benefit of both parties.  It is not all about what you can get from someone else the quickest.  That would be using someone and not caring about their feelings.  In my opinion you may want to look up the real meaning of the word "relationship".



A relationship is a series of interactions between two people. Beyond that, it has no inherent meaning.



David Baxter said:


> Not true. You need to look at some of the research on philanthropy. You also need to take a careful look at your attitudes toward interpersonal relationships, in my opinion. They are extremely distorted and egocentric.



Philanthropy, like altruism more generally, is an illusion. People always want something in return when they act 'altruistically', be it gaining cooperation and therefore a survival advantage, an improvement in their social or self image, or access to more sexual partners through lavish displays of wealth.



stargazer said:


> In fact, I would venture to say that intimacy and "game-playing" (which you seem to think is not competetive, for some reason) are mutually exclusive.  How can you maintain true intimacy with someone with whom you are playing games?



I'm not a competative person, I'm supremely confident in my own abilities and feel no need to 'test' myself against others. So when I play games, I play them for fun, not competatively. This applies to all games, be they video, card, board or social. Intimacy is a game I'm particularly good at- I can get anyone to open up to me, to spill their heart out to me and feel an intimate bond with me. But, it is just a game: it works the same way whether you reciprocate the emotion or not.


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## music dad

Lana said:


> I think there's some truth in what you say, Music Dad.  BUT...  ... I'm not sure that self confidence is what attached folks exude.  I think that what makes attached people attractive to others is this:
> 
> 1. There is this (absurd, I think) notion where people think that says you're good relationship material because you're already in a relationship.  Those looking want a piece of that.



I hear what you are saying. However my reference wasn't specific to "attached" people. As I mentioned just "not looking" for a relationship and being cool with where you are at in my personal experience and others I've known have found more people interested in them.


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## xenopath

David Baxter said:


> Absolutely false. No healthy relationship is like that.
> ...
> That's not a relationship. That's exploitation.



No-one stays in a relationship where they are getting nothing. They may not state openly what it is they want (in fact, they never do so) but that doesn't mean they don't want something. If what they want and what you want are compatable, the arrangement can be mutually beneficial (I suppose that's what you mean by a 'healthy relationship'?). But when what you want and what they want are at odds, your choice is to help yourself or harm yourself- I would say the latter would be the pathological choice.


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## David Baxter PhD

xenopath said:


> A relationship is a series of interactions between two people. Beyond that, it has no inherent meaning.



I feel sorry for you if you truly believe that. First. because it isn't true. And second, because it reveals an unusually jaded and cynical outlook which is going to doom you to a very empty life if you don't find a way to change it.

Or, you could simply be trolling for a reaction to your outrageous statements...



xenopath said:


> Philanthropy, like altruism more generally, is an illusion. People always want something in return when they act 'altruistically', be it gaining cooperation and therefore a survival advantage, an improvement in their social or self image, or access to more sexual partners through lavish displays of wealth.



You are wrong, plain and simple. Do a little homework here. There is a body of research on altruism.



xenopath said:


> I'm not a competative person, I'm supremely confident in my own abilities and feel no need to 'test' myself against others.



I think the phrase "supremely arrogant and egocentric" is probably more accurate.



xenopath said:


> So when I play games, I play them for fun, not competatively. This applies to all games, be they video, card, board or social. Intimacy is a game I'm particularly good at- I can get anyone to open up to me, to spill their heart out to me and feel an intimate bond with me. But, it is just a game: it works the same way whether you reciprocate the emotion or not.



Maybe for a day or two. But most people won't be fooled for long.

It's not just that you're wrong, xenopath. It's that what you are claiming to believe is offensive to most people. I only hope that it's coming from ignorance and inexperience and not from malice.


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## Halo

xenopath said:


> A relationship is a series of interactions between two people. Beyond that, it has no inherent meaning.



Yes a relationship is a series of interactions between two people however that just proves that your view on relationships may be a little distorted given what you said...."Relationships are about getting what you want from someone else, be that money, comfort, sex or emotions".




xenopath said:


> Philanthropy, like altruism more generally, is an illusion. People always want something in return when they act 'altruistically', be it gaining cooperation and therefore a survival advantage, an improvement in their social or self image, or access to more sexual partners through lavish displays of wealth.



I again have to disagree with you. There are many people that are not out for personal gain in what they do whether it be a relationship, their profession, volunteer work etc.  Some people just like to help others, care for others and are compassionate people who have no interest whatsoever in what they can get out of the situation.  In my opinion, I really think that your perception of people in this world is flawed especially your way of generalized thinking saying "people _always_ want something in return".



xenopath said:


> I'm not a competative person, I'm supremely confident in my own abilities and feel no need to 'test' myself against others. So when I play games, I play them for fun, not competatively. This applies to all games, be they video, card, board or social. Intimacy is a game I'm particularly good at- I can get anyone to open up to me, to spill their heart out to me and feel an intimate bond with me. But, it is just a game: it works the same way whether you reciprocate the emotion or not.



That is great that you are confident in yourself and your abilities in life however again I don't see intimacy as a game.  You are playing with someone else's emotions with no care in the world for them or how they feel and are only looking to benefit for yourself.  In my opinion that is cruel to not think of someone else's feelings and emotions and to look at them as a game to conquer.


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## music dad

xenopath said:


> Relationships are a game. People go wrong by taking them to be something more significant. Learn the rules, learn how to manipulate the rules to your advantage, and you win. Simple as that.


Interesting...so what are the rules?.


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## stargazer

Well, my theory about much of what you, xenopath, are saying is that it's interesting stuff for intellectual debate and philosophical speculation, but it doesn't really play out in reality.  It's hard to know, frankly, whether you're even serious, or whether you even believe what you're saying.  

For my part, I'm not exactly sure how I became subscribed to this thread, but I'm unsubscribing now.  I probably responded to something someone had said earlier, and that got me the "subscription."  In my life, the subject of attracting women is not one that particularly interests me or that I devote much energy to.  

So I won't be posting here again.  It's been interesting, but in no way constructive -- for me.


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## Lana

I don't mean to seem disrespectful, but when I read Xenopath's statements, I felt like I was reading a description of a sociopath (who have difficulty when it comes to relationships).  I think that if a person that wants a healthy relationship meets someone that shares the same views, it would be in their best interest to look elsewhere.

Given that, I won't validate anything he said, but I do wish to express my agreement with the majority.  Relationships are not games and there are many people who enjoy healthy, supportive, and fun relationships while maintaining mutual respect (for self and others), care, and love for one another.


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