# Not an Addict



## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

I recently became aware that I had to stop drinking. It hit me like a ton of bricks, and I have since written a 2900 word e-book chronicling the ways in which substance abusers live in denial of the fact they have a problem with substances and how they can so often miss the forest for the trees and not see what everyone around them can generally see so clearly.

 I am looking into starting a support group for people who are aware they have substance abuse issues, but arent geared towards an AA/NA environment. (This includes myself, as I for one am not an alcoholic, I refuse to say I am powerless over my abuse, since I have stopped it and I also refuse to surrender to a "Higher Power" as I believe I am in absolute control of every aspect of my life).  I believe there are many people out there who need or want support, but are turned off by the AA/NA approach and could use a different outlet for support.

  I absolutely believe you can have a substance abuse problem without being addicted to the substance, and I think that thats why so many people are turned off by society's general thinking that if you have a problem with substance abuse, you are automatically labeled an alcoholic or an addict. This is simply not the case and is generally the easiest way to block any avenue of communication with the abuser, when you start slinging terms like that around.

  I have abused alcohol off and on (mostly on) for 11 years, but I was never addicted to it. During a brief 6 week phase of drug use, I knew a few people who were able to manage their drug usage responsibly, and werent addicted but simply abused them recreationally. Despite my heavy usage of just about every substance under the sun during this period when I most likely should have died, I never became addicted though I was most certainly abusing substances.

  All drug or alcohol abusers are not addicts, and I think when you pigeon-hole them into that corner, thats why they become so defensive and resistant to the idea that they could even have a problem at all. If they dont see themselves or they arent addicted to whatever substance, its quite easy to rationalize away the problem that everyone but the abuser can see exists.

  I guess the point of this post, is you or a loved one has a substance abuse problem, simply avoiding the words 'alcoholic' and 'addict' may get you a lot more leeway in getting around to them (or admitting to yourself) that there is in fact a problem.

  Unfortunately, most substance abusers (myself included) will have to hit bottom before they are able to have that revelation that they can no longer use whatever they have been using. More often than not, much will have been lost, broken, or damaged due to the use of the substance in question before this can happen.

  This is just my two cents regarding the world of substance abuse and recovery.

:cat3:


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## ladylore (Mar 5, 2009)

I refer to myself as being in recovery. Your right, the 12-steps don't work for everyone and they do work for some. Thankfully there are many more programs these days that have different points of view. There are SMART, Women for Sobriety and others. 

You may want to do a search under 12-step alternatives to see what already exists in your area.

Personally, I am now 2 and a half years clean and sober. I have taken bits and pieces from several view points and made my own 'program'. We all have different needs and what works can differ for each individual.

How long have you been clean and sober?
What has worked for you to keep yourself on that path?

Congrats


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

well I just had my revelation three days ago, but my son is what works for me and keeps me on my path. He was actually indirectly responsible for the revelation occuring in the first place, as I woke up one morning (after a black-out night) and walked into the living room to see that I had apparently fallen and broken his swing. Its one of his favorite things, and I knew it wouldnt have happened if I hadnt been drinking. The fact that Id broken one of his favorite toys (which I did later end up being able to fix, thankfully) was just too much. Then everything Ive gone through because of alcohol just flooded my head and I knew I had to stop drinking.

  I went through a very brief phase where I was angry at myself for not recognizing that I had a problem sooner because of everything I went through due to my alcohol use, but that passed, and I realized that what mattered was here and now.

  Thanks for the references, I wasnt aware thedre already were other recovery programs other than AA/NA. Ill look into my area to see what we have.  

  Thanks for your response.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

Even where an individual *is* an addict or alcoholic by objective criteria, it isn't always the most helpful strategy to label the individual that way. "Problem drinker" or "substance abuser" may be more easily heard... or not. How you can best approach someone with concerns about substance use is, I think, something that should be tailored to the individual and individual circumstances. 

I know that some addictions counsellors seem to take the view that you are either an addict or an addict in denial but I'm not convinced that's very helpful to most people, even if they *are* in denial.

For many people, just being able to recognize that their alcohol or drug use has become habitual and to some extent outside their direct control may be reason enough to take steps to change that.


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## ladylore (Mar 5, 2009)

We also have an Abstinence Support thread here too that you are more then welcome to join in on. You can find it in the Addictive Behaviours section too.

Take it one day at a time. 

I am proud of you.


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

David Baxter said:


> Even where an individual *is* an addict or alcoholic by objective criteria, it isn't always the most helpful strategy to label the individual that way. "Problem drinker" or "substance abuser" may be more easily heard... or not. How you can best approach someone with concerns about substance use is, I think, something that should be tailored to the individual and individual circumstances.
> 
> I know that some addictions counsellors seem to take the view that you are either an addict or an addict in denial but I'm not convinced that's very helpful to most people, even if they *are* in denial.
> 
> For many people, just being able to recognize that their alcohol or drug use has become habitual and to some extent outside their direct control may be reason enough to take steps to change that.



I agree with what you said, but the group of people I am referring to arent the ones who cant control their drug use, but see no reason why they shouldnt be able to get drunk or high when it suits them.  I am not referring to people who have lost their ability to control, just the ones that cant see that they need to not drink, even when its still their choice and bad habit or compulsion at worst.


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## ladylore (Mar 5, 2009)

I see it like this - No I am not powerless. I can make choices and that gives me power.

And - drugs and alcohol are bigger then me and I needed some assistance to help put them in their rightful place. They just are not safe for me to use.

IMHO


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

Absolutely. Sometimes there are health issues that make it a bad idea. Sometimes it's about who you become when you use - or how you affect people around you.


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

I guess mostly because I take self-empowerment to an unhealthy extreme, I refuse to believe there is anything more powerful than me. Im a very strong-willed person, and generally once I set my mind on something, its set in stone.

  Im very thankful, and very fortunate that I do not experience things the way so many others do, I think if I didnt have the mindset I would have become an addict all those years ago, and I would never have had the realization that I do now.

  I believe we are all in absolute control of our lives and have full responsibility for where we put ourselves.  But then again, I would never expect or imagine anyone else to live to the standards Im compulsed to live by, because there isnt much room for self-forgiveness when anything bad happens, and you take the responsibility for everything bad that you have ever done or thats been done to you, or every time someones hurt you, etc.. Its not an easy way to live, but it was the only way I could keep myself from ever being a victim again. I blame myself for everything, I took all the power away from the rest of the world, and placed it squarely on my shoulders.
eek:


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## Jackie (Mar 5, 2009)

ladylore said:


> I see it like this - No I am not powerless. I can make choices and that gives me power.
> 
> And - drugs and alcohol are bigger then me and I needed some assistance to help put them in their rightful place. They just are not safe for me to use.
> 
> IMHO



I know this might sound a bit over the top but I really feel alcohol should be restricted more or even banned for sale in some shops, its has killed two of my friends and recked others lives that I know. It is a dangerous drug and its so freely available here. Walk into any shop and its there, public houses are open 24/7 in some cases too, people sit in public houses all day here just "getting drunk" or just go to the local store or superstore and get more, even the ice cream man where I live sells the stuff, though everyone keeps quiet about that one!. Anyway great post Atlantean and well done for staying clean to both of you


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

I think prohibition has been tried and failed abjectly. I believe that education and raising awareness is likely to be more successful - rather than taking away choice, encourage responsible choice.

But it's a very complicated issue - socially, legally, politically, even morally to an extent.

In Canada, no individual under the age of 19 can purchase cigarettes or alcohol - but any child in primary school can buy pot and other street drugs in the schoolyard or just around the corner. How much sense does that make?


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

shuttered3 said:


> I know this might sound a bit over the top but I really feel alcohol should be restricted more or even banned for sale in some shops, its has killed two of my friends and recked others lives that I know. It is a dangerous drug and its so freely available here. Walk into any shop and its there, public houses are open 24/7 in some cases too, people sit in public houses all day here just "getting drunk" or just go to the local store or superstore and get more, even the ice cream man where I live sells the stuff, though everyone keeps quiet about that one!. Anyway great post Atlantean and well done for staying clean to both of you



I know there are a lot of people who think it should be banned, and I can certainly see why you would feel that way, after everything you have witnessed it do.

  I guess my perception is just because I cant handle drinking, doesnt mean the rest of the world cant handle theirs. I know there are a lot of states (including Virginia, where I live) that are really cracking down on alcohol related crimes like DUI, and I think thats a good thing.

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David Baxter said:


> I think prohibition has been tried and failed abjectly. I believe that education and raising awareness is likely to be more successful - rather than taking away choice, encourage responsible choice.
> 
> But it's a very complicated issue - socially, legally, politically, even morally to an extent.
> 
> In Canada, no individual under the age of 19 can purchase cigarettes or alcohol - but any child in primary school can buy pot and other street drugs in the schoolyard or just around the corner. How much sense does that make?



I agree, but really would education make that much of a difference? Smokers all know that it causes lung cancer and are aware of the negative health effects, drinkers are too. It doesnt stop them from smoking or drinking.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

> would education make that much of a difference? Smokers all know that it causes lung cancer and are aware of the negative health effects, drinkers are too. It doesnt stop them from smoking or drinking.



It's not so much about changing current smokers or drinkers - it's more about changing the attitudes of children and teens growing up now. For example, I think raising awareness about impaired driving and the campaigns aimed at arranging for designated drivers has had a noticeable impact on younger drivers in this part of the world, although it may have had little or no impact on some adults.

But as I said, it's a complicated issue...


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

I actually just called the local high school to see about giving a talk on the dangers and pitfalls of substance use and abuse. So I do agree.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

Good stuff... :2thumbs:


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## Halo (Mar 5, 2009)

Atlantean,

That is great that you are looking into giving a talk at the local high school...good job :2thumbs:

I tried AA and stuck with it faithfully for 3 years before I got older and wiser (yes I was quite young when I joined) and realized that although I have an addictive personality, alcohol is not one of them.  There were other reasons 
that AA didn't work for me either but that is a completely different topic.  

One thing though was that I did do a lot of speaking engagements and that left me very empowered hoping that others heard my message and took at least a little of what I was saying to heart.

Great decision on looking for 12 Step Alternatives.


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## Jackie (Mar 5, 2009)

Atlantean said:


> I agree, but really would education make that much of a difference? Smokers all know that it causes lung cancer and are aware of the negative health effects, drinkers are too. It doesnt stop them from smoking or drinking.



I don't think education really works. You can tell people about the dangers of drinking, smoking and anything else, you can show them the most graphic films of what it does to their bodies, how it wrecks their internal organs and they will still do it!  In the last place I lived the man in the flat under me had cancer due to smoking,  I won't go into details about the type and the operation he had, but do you know when he recovered he started smoking again, knowing full well the dangers, its what people are like, no amount of leaflets, TV campaigns or whatever are going to make any difference to "most" people , because I think its just human nature that people think, it won't affect me, alot of people think they are immune from cancer and addiction and just go on doing what they do. Just my opinion on this.


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## David Baxter PhD (Mar 5, 2009)

shuttered3 said:


> I don't think education really works. You can tell people about the dangers of drinking, smoking and anything else, you can show them the most graphic films of what it does to their bodies, how it wrecks their internal organs and they will still do it!  In the last place I lived the man in the flat under me had cancer due to smoking,  I won't go into details about the type and the operation he had, but do you know when he recovered he started smoking again, knowing full well the dangers, its what people are like, no amount of leaflets, TV campaigns or whatever are going to make any difference to "most" people , because I think its just human nature that people think, it won't affect me, alot of people think they are immune from cancer and addiction and just go on doing what they do. Just my opinion on this.



See Psychlinks Psychology Self-Help  & Mental Health Support Forum - View Single Post -  Not an Addict


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

shuttered3 said:


> I don't think education really works. You can tell people about the dangers of drinking, smoking and anything else, you can show them the most graphic films of what it does to their bodies, how it wrecks their internal organs and they will still do it!  In the last place I lived the man in the flat under me had cancer due to smoking,  I won't go into details about the type and the operation he had, but do you know when he recovered he started smoking again, knowing full well the dangers, its what people are like, no amount of leaflets, TV campaigns or whatever are going to make any difference to "most" people , because I think its just human nature that people think, it won't affect me, alot of people think they are immune from cancer and addiction and just go on doing what they do. Just my opinion on this.



You know, I dont even think its that they think they are immune or it wont happen, I think that because its such a long time down the road, they figure they will stop by then, or they just dont care.  I was talking to someone one time about how bad smoking is (Im a smoker, too), and their outlook was they would rather die happy after50 years of smoking, than to live ou the worst parts of the remainder of a healthy life dealing with old age problems and issues. So there are many reasons, who will ever know.  I was just telling my mom this morning though, that I think the cigarettes are going to be the next thing to go... so wish me luck  on that one. I just enjoy smoking. Giving that one up will be much harder for me than drinking, because its something Ive done off and on (mostly on) every day since I was fourteen. Granted, Im not a heavy smoker, but I find that my psychological stressors that trigger me to smoke at times are very powerful.  LOL, maybe I can start a CA group. (Cigarettes Anonymous).  :jiggy:


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## Jackie (Mar 5, 2009)

Atlantean said:


> You know, I dont even think its that they think they are immune or it wont happen, I think that because its such a long time down the road, they figure they will stop by then, or they just dont care.  I was talking to someone one time about how bad smoking is (Im a smoker, too), and their outlook was they would rather die happy after50 years of smoking, than to live ou the worst parts of the remainder of a healthy life dealing with old age problems and issues. So there are many reasons, who will ever know.  I was just telling my mom this morning though, that I think the cigarettes are going to be the next thing to go... so wish me luck  on that one. I just enjoy smoking. Giving that one up will be much harder for me than drinking, because its something Ive done off and on (mostly on) every day since I was fourteen. Granted, Im not a heavy smoker, but I find that my psychological stressors that trigger me to smoke at times are very powerful.  LOL, maybe I can start a CA group. (Cigarettes Anonymous).  :jiggy:



Thats a very good point about people wanting to die happy and not have to deal with the issues of old age, alot of people do seem to be happy and enjoy it.  Good luck with giving it up.  I use to smoke from about 11 years of age till I was 25, had a hard time giving it up but it was worth it, found better things to do with the money! The CA group sounds a good idea


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## Into The Light (Mar 5, 2009)

> their outlook was they would rather die happy after50 years of smoking, than to live ou the worst parts of the remainder of a healthy life dealing with old age problems and issues.


the only problem with this is that it affects the people that are physically near them when they smoke. second-hand smoke is bad for everyone, regardless of who you are, and regardless of where you are smoking. smoking outside still causes people near you to breathe in that smoke.


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## ladylore (Mar 5, 2009)

Into The Light said:


> the only problem with this is that it affects the people that are physically near them when they smoke. second-hand smoke is bad for everyone, regardless of who you are, and regardless of where you are smoking. smoking outside still causes people near you to breathe in that smoke.




:agree::goodposting:


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## Jazzey (Mar 5, 2009)

I think this may be an overgeneralization.  I'm a smoker who really wants to quit smoking.  And yes, I'm aware of all the negative side effects.  

I never smoke in front of non-smokers or children....It's an addiction.  And for me personally, has nothing to do with wanting to die happy. I want to quit.  But I'm dealing with one issue at a time for right now.  

As a woman, I also firmly believe that smoking causes even greater harm than for men since we have nicotine receptors on the cervix.  I found out today my Mom is in hospital for clogged arteries (carotid) due to 40 years of smoking.  I can assure you, her smoking over these years had far more to do with struggling with depression than any want of "dying happy".


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## Into The Light (Mar 5, 2009)

good point jazzey. smoking is very difficult to give up. that is the nature of addiction. i think overall there are both smokers who don't want to quit and smokers who do. i am sorry to hear about your mother.


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## Atlantean (Mar 5, 2009)

I only smoke outside. I cant stand the smell of smoke indoors, but I agree with you regarding your sentiment.

(forgot to quote, this was regarding the post about smokers who do others harm through second-hand smoking).


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## stargazer (Mar 7, 2009)

Having just read this thread, I think the main thing I agree with is Dr. Baxter's saying that it's a complicated issue.  I for one can't figure it out.  The whole "powerless" thing in AA/NA doesn't ring quite true for me, unless I am missing the point.  I know that I am powerless over other people's choices, for example, but I can't think of anyone other myself who has the power over my own.  

On the other hand, I am dealing with a close family member who has a very serious problem with alcohol, and she is quite aware that it is a serious problem.  I wouldn't say that she is in "denial," but the alcohol is so much more powerful than she is, she has not yet been able to stop.   She tells me that she can drink a fifth of vodka in a single night, and has sometimes called me up after having done so.  Then, in the morning, she does not remember having called me, or what she said.

I had to look up what actual quantity a "fifth of vodka" would be, and I read that it was the equivalent of 17 drinks.  I personally cannot even imagine putting down 17 of *anything!*  On the other hand, there are some things that I know are bad for me, and yet I am drawn toward them with an irrational compulsion, so that if I even do *one* of them, I might be in serious trouble.

Back to the point, I wonder if she is "powerless" over alcohol, or if it would suffice to admit that, although the alcohol is a lot more powerful than she is, she still has *some* power.  Given any battle between the two of them, alcohol will win, unless something changes.  But something must change.  And where is the power for that change to come from?  Doesn't it have to come from within her?

Even believing in God, as I do, I think we are created with free will - I just don't get the thing of surrendering to a "Higher Power."  What happens then?  Does this other "power" begin to make my choices for me?  As I said, I may be missing the point - but that's my point.  For me, the whole "powerless" idea doesn't make sense.

Now, about meetings.  Occasionally, I go to twelve-step meetings nowadays, and I find that they help me to center myself and relax and put my troubles behind for an hour.  I find that afterwards, I feel calmer, and I am prioritizing things better.  However, the social aspect of AA/NA, and the changes in behavior I have seen some (not all) of the members of such programs adopt, make me leery of wanting to enter into that realm very deeply.   For me, it seems to be a useful group, if I tread lightly therein.

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Oh - I meant to add something about the labeling.  I agree with those who don't feel comfortable wearing the label "drug addict" or "alchoholic."  For me, those labels have largely negative connotations in the popular language of our culture.  So, even if the recovering addict is characterizing his or herself as such in order to show humility, or in order to cop to a deep central issue; it would still seem to me that this kind of self-definition would restrict the person's growth. 

I think this is evidenced in some of the people I know who have hung out in AA or NA with deep absorption over many years.  I have friends like these, and they somehow don't ever seem to change, or to allow themselves the natural progressions of growth and maturity that most people experience over time.  I know I sound as though I am generalizing, but there are specific people in my life who are like this - and I think it's scary.  Their minds seem to be overly occupied with the themes of alcohol and drugs, and they also seem to be on the lookout for symptoms of alcoholism and drug addiction among all their friends and family members.  This doesn't strike me as healthy.

But once again, I suspect this is a function of the social aspect of these programs, and not necessarily of the spirituality that is inherent in AA, NA, etc.  That's why I do go to meetings sometimes - I find them spiritually helpful - but that's also why I don't go very often.


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## Into The Light (Mar 7, 2009)

i'm not sure but i think this higher power concept is there to in a way help people accept things that they have difficulty accepting. i think the higher power idea is there to avoid talking about god specifically, because not everyone is religious, so they replaced it with higher power, and you can fill in the blank for yourself if that is god or something else. i think it's some form of spirituality and of being connected to the world and the universe that we are a part of. that being said, if the idea doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.


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## stargazer (Mar 7, 2009)

Into The Light said:


> i'm not sure but i think this higher power concept is there to in a way help people accept things that they have difficulty accepting. i think the higher power idea is there to avoid talking about god specifically, because not everyone is religious, so they replaced it with higher power, and you can fill in the blank for yourself if that is god or something else. i think it's some form of spirituality and of being connected to the world and the universe that we are a part of. that being said, if the idea doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.



I think that's it, yes.  I also have thought about what I wrote last night, which was an awful lot, considering this is a subject on which I have totally no idea what I'm talking about.  

But having thought about it a little more, I guess a person's will can be surrendered to certain authorities for one's own good - I mean, human authorities whom God (or a Higher Power) has placed in that person's life for their own benefit; i.e., probation officers, substance abuser counselors, public defenders, prosecuting attorneys - you see where I'm headed.  So the surrender of one's will and one's life to a power greater than oneself would not necessarily suggest a kind of cosmic puppeteer up there pulling on one's strings to prevent them from making their own choices.  It could be a lot more concrete than that.

Maybe this is a little too philosophical or analytical - but it would probably work for me better than to feel that I'm relinquishing my power of choice completely; that is, to total powerlessness.  To me, that seems, well, impossible...


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## y-bloc (May 9, 2009)

I didn't like AA at all.  I addressed the 'higher power' issue the first time I spoke up at a meeting.  Everyone chimed in to reassure me that a 'higher power' was just a conceptual tool, that it could be my favorite tree, the universe, nature, etc...in other words just semantics & mumbo-jumbo,  my 'higher power' could be an old chair or a passing thought...or god.  A silly illusion.  

I do consider myself an alcoholic, but not in the way I think the word is usually used.  Just because I'm out of control of alcohol doesn't mean that some mysterious force took the control away from me.  I'm all right here, brain and body.  It's not someone else pouring the alcohol into me when I drink, it's me doing it.  It's not some force outside of me deciding that just one more wont hurt, and it isn't someone else getting teary eyed, insulting or passing out when I've had too much.  It doesn't matter how out of control I feel, it's still me making all of those choices.  

I don't drink.  I don't go to meetings.  I'm a dry alcoholic.   Apparently that's a terrible thing to be...at least according to AA.  Maybe there is a little bit of truth to it.  A dry alcoholic is probably the same hurt puppy they were when they picked up the bottle years ago, only they aren't drunk anymore. But then all AA really does to counter that is to introduce the illusory 'higher power' band-aid.   Relinquish your power to 'something greater than yourself' and you are on the road to recovery, don't and you are in dry stasis. Given the choice between relinquishing responsibility or taking responsibility, I'll take the taking deal any day.  I might not always know the right thing to do with it, but that won't make me give it up.


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## ladylore (May 9, 2009)

There are also many other great resources out there besides the 12 steps. You may want to do a search for '12-step alternatives' for your area.


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## Atlantean (May 10, 2009)

Can someone please explain the concept of what a 'dry' alcoholic actually is? I have heard the term before, but I never really understood exactly what was meant by it.


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## Jazzey (May 10, 2009)

I had actually never heard the term before A.

What Is A Dry Drunk? | Addiction Recovery Basics
The Dry Drunk


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## y-bloc (May 10, 2009)

As far as I understand it, a dry alcoholic is someone who stops drinking but doesn't address the issues that lead to the alcoholism in the first place.  All of the mechanisms that that lead to alcoholism, and all of the behaviors involved in it are still in place...the escapist stuff, fear, depression, anger, whatever.  I only know it as an AA term, so my definition might not be spot on.


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## Halo (May 11, 2009)

I too only know it as an AA term and what you described y-bloc is spot on.  Someone who has quit the drinking but never looked any further and are still engaging in a lot of the same behaviours, relationships etc. but just are not putting the bottle to their mouth.

A dry drunk - someone not working the steps in AA and coasting/not willing to work.


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## ladylore (May 11, 2009)

For me, its not even about the 12-steps. If I catch myself being impulsive, not 'playing the tape' through to the end, not considering other people around me.... then I know it is time to step back and take a look at what is going on. I take out my early recovery pages that the Addiction Centre gave us and go from there.

Your right Halo - if I am not willing for some reason to see what is really going on - for me, that is a red flag.


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