# Things keep coming up ...



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

I have been planning to pass on now for a year or more. I have a short novel written to my grown sons .Explaining the whys and how comes. 
I have an old dog he's 12 years old and has never had any other human besides me . So I had planned that when he goes of old age ,then i would be free to get on with it.

It all planned out , I have had the supplies to go quietly with no mess no fuss for about a year . 

I am not angry . I am just tired of this life I find myself living now.

My kids are raised ,I really really enjoyed the years they were growing up . 

My daughter was killed when a drunk ran her off the road 9 years ago this October. I have lost the only sibling that really cared whether I was okay or not , he died suddenly 5 years ago in an accident.

I have cut all ties with what few real friends I had, I have done this slowly and over a long period of time. 

So I was all set figuring my old dog would probably go this coming winter .

But damn the luck , 

Now somethings come up with a grand daughter that just sort of fell into my lap and I am pretty much committed now for the next few years at least.
Why is it the best laid plans can always get 'unlaid' without notice? 

I found myself counselling after my daughters death , It was exactly what I needed to get thur her sudden death . And again after my brothers sudden death . And again after my step _took his life_.

I know all these deaths have had a negative effect on me , But they are not my reason for what I'm planning .

My reason is this.

My kids are grown and living their own lives , just like I raised them to do. I always knew the day would come I would find myself at loose ends with not much but a job and maybe an old dog to keep me occupied. 

I am not a type to go out to bars , I do not buy into the superstition they push in church, I don't travel , my hobbies bore me.

I just can't see me living this boring empty life for another 20 0r 30 years .


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

Hi whykat,

I can truly sense the feeling of resignation in your post...that you've resigned yourself to the end and that's it.  I can understand.  Really I can.

Have you been back to counselling recently?  It sounds like you could definitely benefit, and you state it was helpful for you before.

Are there things you can put in your life so it seems less boring and empty?  It doesn't have to be anything grandiose...you say your hobbies bore you - how about finding a different hobby?  I too move from activity to activity, getting bored easily, but I've also learned it gives me a very diverse set of skills.

Would a new pet fit into your house?  Even something low maintenance such as a fish can make a big difference in your mood.

I think there is alot to live for, but it is hard to see that in the throes of depression.  It is hard to move out of the depression and find things to do, and thus, the circle repeats itself.

I would really, really urge you to get professional help sooner rather than later.  You don't have to continue to live like this...there are options to a happier, more fulfilling life.


----------



## David Baxter PhD (Aug 17, 2010)

whykat said:
			
		

> I found myself counselling after my daughters death , It was exactly what I needed to get thur her sudden death . And again after my brothers sudden death . And again after my stepson _took his life_.
> 
> ....
> 
> My kids are grown and living their own lives , just like I raised them to do. I always knew the day would come I would find myself at loose ends with not much but a job and maybe an old dog to keep me occupied.


 
You're children, adult or not, also lived through those losses, whykat. To impose another loss, especially the suicide of their mother, on them would be monumentally cruel.

I know it's difficult sometimes to keep going on. Your daughter was 21; mine was 17. So why do we do it? Because it's not your time nor mine, yet. We still have people who need us here, things to do, things to learn. When it is your time, you won't have to do anything. That time is not now.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

I don't need another pet , I will have a grand daughter for three months out of every summer now . lol
 She is only 8  so  it is going to be quite  a few summers I am committed for.
 What would I have to say to a counselor at this point . Hi I'm  ******* and bored out of my brains. 
 Besides , if you have kids  whether they are still at home or grown , you will know how darn nosey they are . I  couldn't go to the bathroom that someone would be knock knocking  " what are you doing ? are you okay ? blah blah blah blah  ??? "
 Yes I understand they will be grieving my passing , that is expected , if I went tomorrow  or not for 50 more years  when I go my kids ill be grieving .
That is way more natural then me grieving their passing . I have thought about it and that may be one of the reasons I am looking forward to going sooner then later, I could not stand beside another grave letting go  of another kid of mine.


----------



## David Baxter PhD (Aug 17, 2010)

There is a huge difference between losing someone to illness, accident, or old age and losing someone to suicide. If you think your children will ever recover from that kind of loss, you are in total denial.


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

That would be a good starting point with a counsellor, yes.  Anything to get the conversation going (the first thing I said to one of my therapists was "I don't actually need therapy.  I'm not here for me"...five years later, I was still in therapy!).  It's not uncommon to seek counselling for the exact reasons you state - you feel your life has no purpose, you have no desire to go on, you don't feel you would be missed.

From a personal standpoint, I have posted many, many times here myself about the exact same things you are experiencing, so I do understand, as best as I can, not having ever met you, that feeling of loneliness, emptiness, and wanting to give up.  I am also a student in university, and just wrote a lengthy research paper on the effects of suicide on the survivors (those left behind).  The grief is significantly more profound than from a natural death and survivors then become a serious risk for suicide themselves.  

I was once asked, in the pits of my grief and despair at being alive, if I thought I had a monopoly on grief.  It made me stop and think, and yes, you've experienced dreadful, painful losses, but as Dr. Baxter states, your children also experienced those losses.  I'm sure they found significant support in you, whether or not you realize it.  

I'm glad you have your grand daughter for the next few years to look after.  That is good.  An enormous opportunity to find meaning in your own life and ways to impact others close to you.

Keep posting here...we'll help you as best as we can, but I do think you would benefit from seeing a counsellor or therapist.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

My condolences  for your loss  David.
   I so hope my 2 sons will be dealing with the loss of their mother (me) and not the other way around .  We know from a very young age the some day we will be  dealing with the pasing of our parents . It is the way of nature.   It isd an old and tired saying " ity's not natural to bury a child" , as any parent that has had to deal with doing exactly that  ' natural  '  is not one of the options  or thoughts at the time  .


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

It's also not natural to take one's own life, whykat.  We are not meant to die that way.  Sadly, it's an option, but humans, to my knowledge, are the only animals that are capable of this behaviour.  It just goes against the natural order of things.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

David Baxter said:


> There is a huge difference between losing someone to illness, accident, or old age and losing someone to suicide. If you think your children will ever recover from that kind of loss, you are in total denial.


 
  One of my step mothers    did it , I was in 6 th grade , I was he one who found her and her note .  My dad did it when he found out that he had cancer,  
  I was care taker for my grand parents the last 15 years  of their lives. I watched them go from being able to do for them selves to not being able to anything much for them selves .   I know if someone were to ask them both my sons would stand up and say H**l yes we will take care of our mom, but ask me if I want either of them  doing for me some of the things that  an older person can no longer do for themselves and my answer is H**l no !


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

But you're not at that point, whykat.  You're crossing bridges that haven't been built yet.  No one can predict the future; we have no idea what will happen when we get older.  This sounds so cliche, and I don't mean to be patronizing but why not enjoy today?  Why not live based on today's circumstances, not what you think might or might not happen down the road?  

I can't imagine the horrors of finding anyone, relative, friend, or stranger, deceased after a suicide.  I'm so sorry you had to endure that.  It has obviously had a lasting and profound effect on you.

You know, I've come here many times, and gone to many therapy sessions, looking for someone to say "it's ok - just go ahead and do it."  Nobody has said that, because it's NOT ok.  It's not ok for me or you or anyone else to take their life.  It is just too devastating, selfish, and permanent.  One thing that keeps me going is I never, ever want to put my mother through this kind of grief.  Ever.  I love her too much.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

Turtle said:


> It's also not natural to take one's own life, whykat.  We are not meant to die that way.  Sadly, it's an option, but humans, to my knowledge, are the only animals that are capable of this behaviour.  It just goes against the natural order of things.


 
 I believe all the medicines  and treatments they have these days are against "the natural order of things"
 Back when the way of life was 'let nature take it's course' when the older people were no longer a contributing member of the community' ( contemporary word) they did stick around   to become depend on the younger people. Don't get me wrong , I would not have wanted anyone else taking care of my grandparents . But the loss of dignity they had  was very hard to watch .


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

There is definitely a fine line, and I agree with you there...about "how far do we go?"...but I don't want to get into that debate here.

Is medication against the natural order of things?  Maybe...maybe not.  Medication has always been around, it's just taken different forms.  It's now more synthetic and chemical-based, based on research to increase it's effectiveness, but there have always been natural forms of medication.  Our life spans have increased significantly as well...we've gone from living 20 or 30 years to living 70 or 80 or more.  There are just no guarantees....and it's truly saddening, for me, when such grandiose decisions are made without facts, reason, logic, or anything else.  

I'm struggling ALOT with medication right now.  I mean...ALOT.  For exactly the same reasons you stated, and "I've lived this long without them, why not keep going?"...but the fact is, when I'm on them, I'm much more clear-headed, in control of my moods, get more out of life, am more pleasant to be around, and am able to function significantly better.  Is this synthetic?  Sure...but...I'll take it, because it adds a level of quality to my life that I wouldn't otherwise have.  

I think it's important to ask the questions you're asking, and have the opinions, because it opens the door to discussion.  Nobody could coerce me, force me, or otherwise to get where I am today...I've had to get here by choice, but with the help of others, when I was willing and ready to ask for it and receive it.  I'm still not totally there...I'm still quite resistant in many ways, but I'm starting to see things differently, and I hope you can too, one day.  But you need to be alive to do that.


----------



## Daniel (Aug 17, 2010)

> I believe all the medicines and treatments they have these days are against "the natural order of things"



Like wearing shoes?  Or wearing glasses?  Or using air conditioning?  Or listening to music using electricity?

Even if you are apprehensive about taking antidepressants, you can still take advantage of talk therapy like CBT, which is a frontline treatment for depression.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

Turtle said:


> But you're not at that point, whykat.  You're crossing bridges that haven't been built yet.  No one can predict the future; we have no idea what will happen when we get older.  This sounds so cliche, and I don't mean to be patronizing but why not enjoy today?  Why not live based on today's circumstances, not what you think might or might not happen down the road?
> 
> I can't imagine the horrors of finding anyone, relative, friend, or stranger, deceased after a suicide.  I'm so sorry you had to endure that.  It has obviously had a lasting and profound effect on you.
> 
> You know, I've come here many times, and gone to many therapy sessions, looking for someone to say "it's ok - just go ahead and do it."  Nobody has said that, because it's NOT ok.  It's not ok for me or you or anyone else to take their life.  It is just too devastating, selfish, and permanent.  One thing that keeps me going is I never, ever want to put my mother through this kind of grief.  Ever.  I love her too much.


 
 I felt pretty silly about 1 second after I hit submit  with my OP . Here I am pissing and moaning about life getting in the way of my plans .  
   After all my planning and writing the whys and reasons in that short novel to my sons , what am i doing posting about it on a public forum? 
  My mother wouldn't even mind if no one called her to tell her. She left when I was 6 weeks old , my brothers found her when I was 30 years old , we ( my brothers and I ) gave her 17 years to be a part of our lives , and at this point I have spoken to one time in the last 11 years I called her to tell her about my brother , she thanked me for the call  , offered her condolences  and we hung up. 
   When my 25 year old step son shot himself  ,you are right it is a more intense and harder grief to deal with , he had his first serious broken heart  moved out of the girlfriends house one weekend  the next weekend he killed himself . 
 That is the reason for the novel I have spent most of a year on to my sons . I don't want  them  to have to ask why, I realize they will  question my reasons ,  but there won't be  the questions without answers    or answers with out reasons, his death left .

---------- Post added at 08:32 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:23 AM ----------




Turtle said:


> There is definitely a fine line, and I agree with you there...about "how far do we go?"...but I don't want to get into that debate here.
> 
> Is medication against the natural order of things?  Maybe...maybe not.  Medication has always been around, it's just taken different forms.  It's now more synthetic and chemical-based, based on research to increase it's effectiveness, but there have always been natural forms of medication.  Our life spans have increased significantly as well...we've gone from living 20 or 30 years to living 70 or 80 or more.  There are just no guarantees....and it's truly saddening, for me, when such grandiose decisions are made without facts, reason, logic, or anything else.
> 
> ...


 
 Yes, I was careful to post  sparingly  about medicines and treatments ,because like you that is a topic for another thread in another  part of the forum.
 One of the theorists almost had me talked into starting the long drawn out deal  of finding the right mix or cocktail of meds  after about 8 months of counselling for anger mangament and grief. But after researching them extensively  I  decided  against it.   
 You are right , it is  ourselves that bring us to  where we find our selves at any given moment .  I see  it as 'painting myself into a corner and using some really fugly ugly color of paint .  Just think of the ugliest color you can imagine and  having painted youtrself into a corner with it .

---------- Post added at 08:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 AM ----------




Daniel said:


> Like wearing shoes?  Or wearing glasses?  Or using air conditioning?  Or listening to music using electricity?
> 
> Even if you are apprehensive about taking antidepressants, you can still take advantage of talk therapy like CBT, which is a frontline treatment for depression.


 
 no, i mean like prescribing so many different medications to a person  that  it is called a 'cocktail'  and in some cases it will take  a year or more of hit and miss with some educated guesses thrown  for good measure   before maybe hitting on a mix / cocktail that might work  then several more months trying to guess what dose of which one  will work .

 Or like an elderly  aunt of mine that  landed in  the hospital testing positive for rat poison because of the many different drugs she was taking   . 

 Talk therapy with the right therapist is  IMO the answer .
   I looked for and found a therapist  when I was a youngster just stepping out into the world to help me overcome the 5 step mothers I had   as a kid growing up .

and again when my kids came and my marriage went south . I had no idea what a parent was or should be . 
 And as I already posted when my daughter and my brother  each died suddenly . 
   I don't feel scared like the first  couple of times I sought therapy . I don't feel depressed or sad like the other times I sought therapy .


----------



## Daniel (Aug 17, 2010)

> I don't feel scared like the first couple of times I sought therapy . I don't feel depressed or sad like the other times I sought therapy .



You don't need to be depressed or sad to benefit from therapy.    Also, in many ways, clinical depression is more about cognition (cognitive inflexibility, distorted thinking, etc.) than just feelings/mood per se.

Have you seen a doctor to rule out things like hormones as a potential contributing factor?

What you are experiencing, e.g. suicidal thinking, definitely points to the need for treatment of some kind.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

Daniel said:


> You don't need to be depressed or sad to benefit from therapy.    Also, in many ways, clinical depression is more about cognition (cognitive inflexibility, distorted thinking, etc.) than just feelings/mood per se.
> 
> Have you seen a doctor to rule out things like hormones as a potential contributing factor?
> 
> What you are experiencing, e.g. suicidal thinking, definitely points to the need for treatment of some kind.


 
   Menopause,  is the only 'different' health issue I have today  that I did not have before. 
 I have been reading back over this thread and some of the 'short novel ' I have for my sons  . May be it wasn't so silly to post about this here. 
 When writting my 'reasons' to my sons  , I tend to dwell on the ' fugly ugly  paint color ' . Here in this thread I seem to be ' thinking out of that corner' . I know that makes sense or would if I am using the right words.   
 Maybe I am just talking my self into putting it all on   a shelf for a few more years , that granddaughter would be in a heck of a fix if  I don't stand up to the commitment/ promise I made


----------



## Daniel (Aug 17, 2010)

> Menopause, is the only 'different' health issue I have today that I did not have before.



That's potentially a huge issue related to mental health:

http://forum.psychlinks.ca/hormones-and-depression/

A lot of menopausal women benefit greatly from hormone therapy in addition to SSRIs.   For some, hormone therapy is a better antidepressant than SSRIs, and many women with depression or anxiety symptoms from menopause (like my mom) are on a low dose of hormone therapy in addition to taking a SSRI.

In any case, you definitely need to communicate these symptoms like suicidal thinking to your doctors, e.g. your gynecologist and primary physician.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

No thank you . My mother has been 'going ' though  menopause for over twenty years , she started in her early  50's , she takes every pill every treatment that doctor puts in front of her  and she is still having hot flashes , mood swings ,  weight gain ,  well she always been mental ( or so I have heard)  and she is pushing75 years of age at this point.    Menopause  has been a natural part of a woman's life since the first female ever . Some raspberry leaf tea and  a few other organic  herbal  things have gotten females  though this for a lot longer then any pill made from female horse **** .


----------



## Daniel (Aug 17, 2010)

What about talk therapy? Certainly, your current strategy of dealing with this without some professional support is not the most effective way to go about things.


----------



## whykat (Aug 17, 2010)

I  have been giving it serious thought and made a few calls this after noon. I am not going to announce Hi I'm ****** and suicidal .  Hell they wrap people up in straight jackets and toss them into the other side of the hospital for stuff like that .  It is a very tricky  row to hoe when you are not agreeable to swallowing just every pill  a doc has a handful of samples of in his office pill cabinet . 
   But I like I said I did make a  a couple of calls around   .


----------



## Banned (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm glad you were able to do that, whykat.  That's the first step, and often the hardest, so good job.


----------



## whykat (Aug 18, 2010)

Turtle said:


> I'm glad you were able to do that, whykat.  That's the first step, and often the hardest, so good job.


 
Making phone calls or even appointments is  the easy part for me. I live in a very rural area ,the closest town  limit sign is just at 45 miles from my gate.So the really hardest part is keeping any appointments I may make . It seems that  just  about anything can make me miss an appointment , say like , gosh I just had to check and fill my hummingbird feeders   ect...


----------

