# Considering suicide: Don't let despair obscure other options



## Eunoia

Considering suicide: Don't let despair obscure other options
MayoClinic, April 15, 2004

_Depression and hopelessness can cloud your thinking, and you may consider taking your own life. Learn about healthy coping strategies to get through a crisis. _

When life doesn't seem worth living anymore or your problems seem insurmountable, you may think that the only way to find relief is through suicide.

You might not believe it, but you do have other options, options to stay alive and feel better about your life. Maybe you think you've already tried them all and now you've had enough. Or maybe you think your family and friends would be better off without you.

It's OK to feel bad, but try to separate your emotions from your actions for the moment. Realize that depression, other mental disorders or long-lasting despair can distort your perceptions and impair your ability to make sound decisions. Suicidal feelings are the result of treatable illnesses. So, try to act as if there are other options, even if you may not see them right now.

No, it probably won't be easy. You may not feel better overnight. Eventually, though, the sense of hopelessness can lift. You can find support, appropriate treatment and reasons for living.

*When you need immediate help*
If you're considering suicide right now and have the means available, contact someone for help. The best choice is to call 911 or your local emergency services number.

If you simply don't want to do that, for whatever reason, you have other choices for reaching out to someone:

Contact a family member or friend. 
Contact a doctor, mental health professional or other health care professional. 
Contact a minister, spiritual leader or someone in your faith community. 
Go to your local hospital emergency room. 
Call a crisis center or hot line.

Crisis centers or suicide hotlines are often listed in the front of your phone book or on the Internet. They offer trained counselors, usually volunteers, who can help you through an immediate crisis. Some crisis centers with an Internet presence offer e-mail contact, but remember that responses may not be as prompt as with telephone support.

Talking to someone about your feelings, connecting with them, can help relieve the burden of despair and isolation, even temporarily. It may help you shift perspective and more clearly see your other options.

*Daily coping strategies*
You may struggle with suicidal feelings frequently, perhaps many times a day. Develop a strategy to cope with those feelings in a healthy way. Consider asking a doctor, family member or friend to help create a strategy tailored to your specific situation.

It may mean doing things you don't feel like doing, such as talking to friends when you'd rather hole up in your bedroom all day with the curtains drawn, or going to the hospital for a mental health evaluation. But stick to your strategy, especially when you're in the grips of despair and hopelessness.

As part of your strategy, consider these measures:

Keep a list of contact names and numbers readily available, including doctors, therapists and crisis centers. 
If your suicide plans include taking an overdose, give your medications to someone who can safeguard them for you and help you take them appropriately. 
Rid your home of knives, guns, razors or other weapons you may consider using for self-destructive purposes. 
Schedule daily activities for yourself that have brought you even small pleasure in the past, such as taking a walk, listening to music, watching a funny movie, knitting or visiting a museum. If they no longer bring you at least a modicum of joy, however, try something different, particularly if these familiar activities induce painful reminders. 
Get together with others, even if you don't feel like it, to prevent isolation. 
Avoid drug and alcohol use. Rather than numb painful feelings, alcohol and drugs can increase the likelihood of harming yourself by making you more impulsive, more open to giving in to self-destructive or despairing thoughts. 
Write about your thoughts and feelings. Remember to also write about the things in your life that you value and appreciate, no matter how small they may seem to you.

Some organizations recommend creating a "plan for life" or similar plan of action that you can refer to when you are considering suicide or are in a crisis. This is a checklist of activities or actions you promise yourself to take in order to keep yourself alive or stay on course with treatment. For instance, it may stipulate that you contact certain people when you begin considering suicide. It may also include commitments to take medication appropriately, attend treatment sessions or appointments, and to remind yourself that your life is valuable even if you don't feel it is.

Also, consider creating a list of specific activities to try when you're feeling suicidal or just feeling bad. The key is to engage in self-soothing for a range of negative feelings, not just when you reach the point of suicidal thoughts. Make sure they're activities that would normally offer enjoyment and that can help comfort you, not cause additional stress. Then, do each item on your list until you feel like you can go on living. It can include such things as:


Practicing deep-breathing exercises 
Playing an instrument 
Taking a hot bath 
Eating your favorite food
Writing in a journal 
Going for a walk 
Contacting family, friends or other trusted confidantes

Even if the immediate crisis passes, consult a doctor or mental health professional, or seek help through an emergency room if your area isn't served by mental health professionals. They can help make sure you're getting appropriate treatment. Medication and psychotherapy, either individual or group, are often effective treatments for depression, anxiety, substance abuse and other mental disorders, and they can help you feel better about yourself and your life. Although you may not want to consider psychiatric hospitalization, it can help protect you and give medication and psychotherapy a chance to work more effectively.

*Seeing beyond the despair*
The despair and hopelessness you feel as you consider suicide may be the side effects of illnesses that can be treated. These emotions can be so overpowering that they cloud your judgment and lead you to believe that taking your own life is the best, or only, option.

But even people with long-standing suicidal thoughts can learn to manage them and to develop a more satisfying life through effective coping strategies. Take an active role in saving your own life, just as you would help someone else. Enlisting others for support can help you see that you have other options and give you hope about the future. Suicide isn't a solution, it's an ending.


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## Allegro

_For instance, it may stipulate that you contact certain people when you begin considering suicide _ 

I know what you are advising is good and solid, but I have to add one thing that I struggle with: I have tried or been close to trying suicide many times. More times than I can even comprehend. I feel as if I don't have anyone who would want to listen if I did contact them. I don't trust hotlines, and there is no way I will go to an emergency room. On top of this, I just feel very embarrassed that I can't seem to hold my head above water, and I just want to let go and float away. 

I can't stop crying. I cry all day, every day. I don't want to try anymore. Why should I, anyway? I have been in therapy for ten years! I am on seven different kinds of meds which I take religiously! What the H#LL am I doing wrong?


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## ^^Phoenix^^

I know what you mean. Hotlines just frustrate me anyway, but I have taken this advice in the past. I spoke with a person (close family member) and they advised me to call them whenever I was feeling suicidal. But, I don't think that someone _not_ suffering from suicidal tendancies actually knows how all consuming it can be. I would call when ever I was most desperate, and began to feel like I was more of a burden to the individual than anything else. I began to recieve grumpy answers to my calls and as a result I stoped calling pretty sharpish (we are very sensitive creatures, arn't we? especially in times like these) 
Now that I am feeling better, I can see how much strain I would have been putting on that person. Even though I never wanted advice, just someone to hear me to the person listening the noise and the emotion is raw and very loud. 
I don't really know why I started this post, perhaps to give this kind of perspective to this coping model. 
However, the main point I would like to pass on to you is to get out of your cycle. Which is easy to say, and not so easy to hear when you've struggled for 10 years. I loath to see people on as many meds as you, not because they don't need them, but I worry about the effects of combining the different chemicals. 
However, I am NOT a doctor, so don't take advice from me on meds! lol. The getting out of your cycle refers to trying new things. Things that make you proud of yourself. 
 Karate, I'm sure would be a good one (I am considering it for me at the moment) because you get rewarded when you get to the different levels. It has goals, activity (for endorphines), rewards, sociability, and competition (which is a good outlet for aggression (No, Im not talking violence)) and gives you something to look forward to. 
Think about things, (doesn't have to be a sport or a hobby) that you can do, to get out of your cycle. Getting out of the location that you are usually in, 
getting out of the physical slump (even if you are a gym goer, lets face it, gym is boring) 
getting out of the 'hum-drum' you may experiance in general day to day
and just experiancing something new. 

Then lastly,... when you decide what your doing,.... don't look at it as a 'cure' or a 'self-help' or ANYTHING to do with depression. Just enjoy what it is, when your doing it.


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## Cat Dancer

^^Phoenix^^ said:


> Now that I am feeling better, I can see how much strain I would have been putting on that person. Even though I never wanted advice, just someone to hear me to the person listening the noise and the emotion is raw and very loud.



I keep thinking about this. This is how I think I am, a very loud, raw noise that just doesn't stop. People do get tired of it. And getting well is such a slow process with many steps backward it seems. But it isn't fair to wear other people out with the loud noise of depression and other issues. I guess that is why professional help is so important. But I'm wary of even putting all of it on someone in that situation.

I'm not really sure what I'm trying to say except I'm tired of being this way and feeling everything is so slow and going so slowly.


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## Into The Light

hi janet i can relate to this as well. i've put some close friends and family through a lot when i was in need of help. i still feel guilty about it but they all tell me not to worry about it. also i feel a bit guilty about what i put on my therapist's shoulders last week but i keep telling myself this is his job and he wouldn't be doing it if he couldn't handle these kinds of things. i guess i don't know what i am trying to say either other than that you're not alone in thinking these things. i guess we have to try and find a balance of some sort and not feel guilty about the things we do reveal.


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## Halo

I can relate to the part of whether my therapist can handle what I am telling him and being too much for him especially since my last therapist left on stress leave.  It really made me wonder.  I have been reassured by my new therapist that he has his own support system and ways of handling things and I am not to worry about him.  His job is to help me and to worry about myself.  I have been told to trust him on this that he is more than capable of taking care of himself.  That was reassuring to hear and although at first I didn't know if I really believed and trusted him on this, I have to say that I am really starting to after each session.  I truly try to hold nothing back and it is freeing to know that I don't have to worry about him.

I hope this is sort of relevant to what you guys are talking about and I just wanted to share my experience.  As for the other parts about being draining on people, I don't tend to talk to anyone about my depression so I keep it all inside.


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## Cat Dancer

Eunoia said:


> Considering suicide: Don't let despair obscure other options
> MayoClinic, April 15, 2004
> 
> _Depression and hopelessness can cloud your thinking, and you may consider taking your own life. Learn about healthy coping strategies to get through a crisis. _



What if you aren't depressed and your thoughts are not clouded and you think you're making a perfectly rational decision?





> It's OK to feel bad, but try to separate your emotions from your actions for the moment. Realize that depression, other mental disorders or long-lasting despair can distort your perceptions and impair your ability to make sound decisions. Suicidal feelings are the result of treatable illnesses. So, try to act as if there are other options, even if you may not see them right now.



What if there aren't any emotions attached to anything anymore. And the thought is "This is the right thing to do"?


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## David Baxter PhD

Janet said:
			
		

> What if you aren't depressed and your thoughts are not clouded and you *think* you're making a perfectly rational decision?
> 
> What if there aren't any emotions attached to anything anymore. And the *thought* is "This is the right thing to do"?



That's not logic or rational thinking. That's exactly the sort of distorted thinking that characterizes depression and related mood disorders.

If you start to think that suicide is the "answer" to anything at all, that should be the first sign to you and those around you that you are not thinking clearly or rationally and that you absolutely need therapy and medication.

It's really that simple. Because with the possible exception of someone enduringg a painful terminal disease with no hope of any possible outcome other than a painful death, the belief that suicide is an "answer" or "solution" to anything is *always* the result of distorted thinking.


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## Cat Dancer

I just don't know.  I've been trying so hard, the therapy and medications and I feel worse and I keep thinking when is this going to turn around and it doesn't. 

I can't attach any feeling to these thoughts so they seem rational to me. Right now it's hard to understand the concept that it is distorted thinking. I get so confused. I keep thinking maybe all my thoughts are distorted or maybe none of them are distorted, but how can only some of them be distorted?   I don't understand.


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## foghlaim

Janet maybe some of your ans are contained in this thread, 
*Frequently asked Questions about suicide.*

*"Is there such a thing as "rational" suicide?"  page 2, #11*
This is the question I had a few weeks back Janet, sound similar to yours i think.

You yourself replied in this thread.. maybe if you read over what you and the others wrote there, it might help??   
I'm afraid i have no answers for you.. as i still frequently think the same way.   But i'm sure the others here can explain why some thoughts re rational and some aren't etc. 

:hug:


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## Cat Dancer

I don't think there are any answers.  Not really.


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## David Baxter PhD

No. There are plenty of answers. I'm not convinced you want to hear them tonight though.


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## foghlaim

I'd like to hear them,  if possible??


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## David Baxter PhD

You've already heard them... in this thread and a few others.


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## Cat Dancer

I guess that is true for me about the answers. That I've heard them. Sometimes things get all mixed up inside.

I'm really sorry for what I posted today. I guess I am discouraged about things that keep happening. I keep working to get to the right place and trying to do the right things (take medication, go to therapy, counter the negative thoughts and challenge all my thoughts really) and the awful thoughts still are there. And it's scary. I guess I thought/hoped I would feel better or see some kind of change by now or at least some of the thoughts would be less scary or easier to deal with or something like that. 

I'm really sorry.


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## ThatLady

Janet, you don't owe us any apologies. The one you must apologize to is yourself. When you beat yourself down, and let others beat you down, you do yourself a disservice. It's to you the apology is owed, and for that reason.

You MUST take care of yourself. You MUST do what you know is right for you. You're an intelligent young woman with a beautiful child of whom you can be very proud. You know the answers to your own questions. You simply don't care to see them right now.

Taking medications and going to therapy are the easy parts of recovery. Those are the things we can do without much effort. The hard parts involve a lot of work, and a lot of that work is very, very scary work. Yet, it's work we have to do.

We have to go on when we don't think we can. We have to keep trying when it seems the mountain is too high to climb. We have to force ourselves to honor ourselves and to begin to insist that others honor us, as well. That's the hard part, and it doesn't come easily; nor, does it come quickly. It takes concerted effort over time. :hug:


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## Cat Dancer

I just wanted to try to clarify something. When I said I didn't think there were any answers, I meant to this question:



			
				Janet said:
			
		

> I keep thinking maybe all my thoughts are distorted or maybe none of them are distorted, but how can only some of them be distorted?



I didn't mean that I thought there weren't any answers to getting well. And I do care to hear the answers if there are any. But maybe it's just the way the brain works. 

What is hard is figuring out, in the heat of a moment, what is distorted and what is not distorted. It's confusing and it's frightening and sometimes maybe someone just needs to hear once more that suicide is NOT a rational thing or an answer. Maybe they're reaching out and they need to hear it just once more. Maybe hearing that once more WILL make a difference in that moment. Because that is all we really can do is try to make it from moment to moment sometimes.


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## ThatLady

Suicide is NEVER, NEVER, NEVER the right answer. It's ALWAYS a distorted thought. There are no exceptions, except as David mentioned - the person who is doomed by a painful, debilitating and incurably terminal illness.

While depression is painful, and debilitating, it is not incurable. Thankfully, there is treatment. It's not a death sentence, like some diseases we might have. We're actually very fortunate that we live in the time we do, when things like those we suffer with can be treated and cured.

I agree that it's difficult, when things are piling up in your head, to sort through the thoughts and try to find those that make sense and those that obviously don't. Yet, it can be done if one will keep always in the forefront of one's mind that suicide doesn't make anything better, EVER. It's a permanent solution to a temporary problem, and that just doesn't make sense.


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## comfortzone

Janet,

Distorted thoughts are thoughts that we learn about our life, ourselves and others.  They seem real enough and yet they are based upon misinformation.  An examples of distorted thinking include labeling, magnification, personalization, "should" or "must" statements, blaming and fallacy of change.  You will find that we all use these at one time or another.  Awareness of what you are doing is important as this gives you the opportunity to change.


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## David Baxter PhD

Janet said:
			
		

> But maybe it's just the way the brain works.


That was exactly my point, Janet. It IS the way your brain works... when you're in the grips of depression. And what that means it that's the way your brain works when it is distorting reality. It's just not real.


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## Cat Dancer

I just wonder if it is brain chemistry that causes the thoughts or if it is almost like a bad habit. Like a thought that brings relief but it's a false sense of relief.


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## ThatLady

I think some people do make a habit of thinking that way when they feel really stressed, Janet. It's done so often it becomes habitual behavior - sort of a distorted coping mechanism. My daughter was told by her therapist at one time that she'd made a "friend" of suicide. It was to that "friend" she ran when she felt cornered and didn't know what to do. Therapy and medication helped her to find better ways to deal with the stress.


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## Cat Dancer

I think it's really hard, though, when you're all alone with those thoughts and there isn't anywhere to turn to find out if they aren't rational thoughts in that moment. 

I'm glad your daughter found better ways.


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## ThatLady

She didn't find them on her own, Janet. She found them through medications and therapy. The medications made it possible for the therapy to work. Without that combination, I'm not sure she could have done all the work she's done so successfully. I remember all too well the times when she couldn't see past the distortions.


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## Cat Dancer

These thoughts are going over and over in my head:

If I truly can't/won't see the answers I should already know, then how is there any hope for me. If I refuse to see them or something like that, then I can't get well. 

I can't stop thinking about this. Maybe this is what's wrong in therapy. I can't see what is right before me and I never can. What is wrong with someone like that. 

I thought I was trying really hard, taking the medication, trying hard in therapy I told myself I was doing the best I could do, but now I'm wondering if it has all been a waste, if it is impossible for me to see what I need to see or I am blocking myself from seeing it. Or if I just don't want to get well. I thought I did, but now I'm even more confused than when I started.


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## ThatLady

I think what you're experiencing is pretty normal; especially, during the early stages of therapy. We question ourselves constantly. The wrong has to lie with us because that's what we've come to believe is always the case. We measure everything in black and white. It's either all one thing, or all another - all bad, or all good. That's just not how life really is; nor, is it how people really are. We, and life, exist in shades of grey.

What is today isn't necessarily what's going to be tomorrow, or next week, or next month. We learn as we go along, and things change slowly - sometimes without our even realizing that a change is taking place. It can look pretty chaotic in the beginning, and it can seem like we'll never reach our goal. Yet, once that goal is reached, the road seems a lot shorter than it did while we were travelling. :hug:


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## Cat Dancer

I've been in therapy for over six months now. I don't know if that is still beginning stages or not, but it seems like forever and it seems like we're stuck.


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## comfortzone

Janet,

I would imagine that you are experiencing these doubts and concerns due to your discomfort of being in the therapeutic relationship.  It is not abnormal to attempt to develop a sense of distance between you and your therapist at first.  The development of your relationship with your therapist can take some time.  The more difficult experiences you have had in your life can impact the length of time it takes to develop the alliance.  The only wasted time that would  "exist" would be if you stopped going to your therapy.  How you are reacting to therapy is valuable information to your therapist.  Please share your feelings with him/her.  Expressing your feelings of the sessions to your therapist will provide him/her with an opportunity to help you work through these feelings.  Just so you know it took me a good six months just to get to the point where I could address some of my issues with my therapist.  There is no time frame in mind when disclosing your most personal thoughts and feelings.  Take care.


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## Cat Dancer

comfortzone, I just wanted to say that what you wrote has been very helpful.  Especially this part:



comfortzone said:


> Just so you know it took me a good six months just to get to the point where I could address some of my issues with my therapist.  There is no time frame in mind when disclosing your most personal thoughts and feelings.  Take care.



I've been thinking I should be out of therapy by now or farther along or feeling better than I am, but knowing that I'm not alone in taking this long to get to some of the big issues is helpful to me. 

I was also thinking, I don't WANT to have the thoughts of suicide. I hate that they pop into my head, sometimes when it seems like things are even going better. I'm not having them right now or for the last day or so, but it seems like things have been so much harder knowing that I MUST keep going, that it isn't an option to get out of this. But that's just how it is. I do have to keep going. 

I know I'll probably have the thoughts again, but I just have to keep telling myself it isn't an option and hopefully with therapy and medication and time I can really, really believe that and eventually I won't even have the awful thoughts at all. I hope.


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## comfortzone

Janet,

I was in therapy for two years straight and I could have stayed in longer because it became such an important part of my life.  I was learning about myself in relation to the world.  I found out how I dealt with situations in life.  Being in therapy was one of the best things I have ever done for myself.  Some thoughts can be so automatic that we have them without even realizing that we are "thinking" once again.  I learned that sometimes we can think too much, analyze our situations, ourselves and others too much and all of these to a point where there seems to be no clear way out.  Thinking no longer serves as a problem solving skill but rather a terror.  There is no blame in that last statement.  Some of my clients tell me that a family member has said to them "just snap out of it."  However, it isn't that easy in terms of depression and anxiety.  But communicating our feelings with a therapist can be so helpful.  It will take time to work through your issues.  Don't be overly concerned about how long it is taking you.  And when your focus is on the time, or what you are thinking about the therapist (he/she should do this or that) it is a best time to communicate to them what you are feeling.  They are not there to judge.  Therapists are there to bring awareness without judgment.  Sometimes we humans get to moving so fast that when we do finally slow down we notice the skids marks we have left trying to get through all of our issues so fast.  I do believe in time with the continued therapy and medication you will find yourself in a better place.  Take care.


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## Cat Dancer

comfortzone said:


> Janet,
> 
> I learned that sometimes we can think too much, analyze our situations, ourselves and others too much and all of these to a point where there seems to be no clear way out.  Thinking no longer serves as a problem solving skill but rather a terror.  There is no blame in that last statement.



This is how I feel now. So stuck in myself. 



> Sometimes we humans get to moving so fast that when we do finally slow down we notice the skids marks we have left trying to get through all of our issues so fast.



This is true. 



> I do believe in time with the continued therapy and medication you will find yourself in a better place.  Take care.



I hope so. 

I was thinking about this whole topic, the thoughts. I've always had them. As far back as I can remember I didn't want to BE. So they're not jarring to me and they don't feel like a warning sign because I'm so used to them. But when I think about it, really think, it is scary to have them. On the other hand it is also so normal for me. 

I used to stay all night with my cousins sometimes and they lived next to a train track. In the middle of the night the train would go roaring by and it would always wake me up, but not them. They were used to it and I wasn't. That's how these thoughts are. I'm so used to them they aren't warning me like they should be.  I don't know if that makes any sense. 

I honestly think I am trying as hard as I can, trying to do what the doctor tells me and the therapist. I am still struggling so much. I thought it would be easier by now.


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## Halo

> I honestly think I am trying as hard as I can, trying to do what the doctor tells me and the therapist. I am still struggling so much. I thought it would be easier by now.



Janet, I can tell that you are trying as hard as you can and following what your doctor and therapist are telling you and I have to say that I am proud of you for that :goodjob:

As for still struggling and thinking that it would be easier by now, I would have to say that bringing up your issues in therapy is always going to be hard and painful and if you weren't struggling while trying to do that then I would be concerned.  I believe that you are exactly where you need to be at the moment with taking your medication, going to therapy and taking care of yourself....you are doing good and it will get easier in due time.

Take care
:hug: :hug:


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## Cat Dancer

Thanks, Halo. 

It just hurts so much. I don't know how I am going to keep getting through these long, horrible, painful nights when everything just comes back and I can't get away from it. It hurts and hurts and hurts. And I'm tired. I've tried so many different things to make the pain go away. I don't know what else to do.

I think there's no more hope.


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## Daniel

> I think there's no more hope.



You feel that way because you are depressed, not because that is the reality of the situation, as Dr. Baxter points out. For me, any moderate-to-severe depression causes a feeling of hopelessness.  However, nothing is permanent, and I always feel better the next hour, the next day, or, at worst, the next week.


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## Daniel

> I don't know what else to do.



I don't know about you, but when I see a therapist, they have a lot of recommendations for me.  Some of the typical recommendations I have gotten:

- Get more exercise
- Get more intellectual stimulation (learn something new)
- Get more friends
- Start dating
- Work more or work less (depending on the situation)
- Get more sunlight
- Do stress-management exercises (visualization, deep breathing, whatever you like)
- Try to stop thinking in all-or-nothing, black-or-white terms
- Try a new anti-depressant medication
- Spend more time listening to music since that seems to calm you down


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## Cat Dancer

Daniel said:


> You feel that way because you are depressed, not because that is the reality of the situation, as Dr. Baxter points out. For me, any moderate-to-severe depression causes a feeling of hopelessness.  However, nothing is permanent, and I always feel better the next hour, the next day, or, at worst, the next week.



This is so true. I can see that today. I don't have that awful, hopeless feeling. I feel a little bit hopeful. I guess you just have to wait it out sometimes.

The suggestions are good and my therapist has mentioned several of those. 

I'm just thankful to be having a better day.


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## Halo

Janet, I am glad to hear that you are having a better day today 

It is nice to see, enjoy it 

Take care
:hug: :hug:


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## Cat Dancer

Thanks, Halo. I am kind of embarrassed at some of the things I wrote on this thread, the really low, low, downness. But it is helpful in a way as a reminder of how things can change and you can feel not so bad sometimes.

:hug:


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## Halo

A wise person once told me that honestly is never a reason to be embarrassed and you know what....he was right  

It is a good reminder of how feelings and thoughts can change from one day to the next and you have to hang on because you never know what the next day will bring. 

:hug:


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## ThatLady

I'm just happy that today is a better day for you, Janet! I hope tomorrow is even better! :hug:


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## gooblax

I know I said I wasn't going to post for a month, but I'll beat myself up about that later. I thought I should ask about this:

My thoughts about suicide are the most convincing when they occur while I'm feeling calm and rational. Sure, they're stronger when I'm more emotionally caught-up in things, but it's when I'm calm that I just think "yes, I'm going to do that." That's when I try to plan it, but there are too many holes in the plan (the biggest one being my cowardice - so I have to plan to remove that as well). That aside (as I am a coward and it is therefore not relevant), why would the thoughts be more compelling when I'm not feeling particularly miserable at all? Considering that if I were to examine the basis for such thoughts (whilst in that/this mood) I would not be willing to explore further than "it is what should be done," one would think that that would be able to partially discount the rationality of the thoughts. But I dunno, it just seems to form an indisputable barrier, convinced of it's own rationality.


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## Mari

> convinced of it's own rationality.



It makes perfect sense but also makes me think of the time we were in the eye of a hurricane. Everything was so peaceful and calm but with a strange eerieness and forboding of what was still to come. We made preparation for the second wave of the storm and when it had passed we were so happy that we had made it safely through. I like what ThatLady posted. 





> We have to go on when we don't think we can. We have to keep trying when it seems the mountain is too high to climb. We have to force ourselves to honor ourselves and to begin to insist that others honor us, as well. That's the hard part, and it doesn't come easily; nor, does it come quickly. It takes concerted effort over time.


 ❤️ Mari


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## Daniel

gooblax said:


> My thoughts about suicide are the most convincing when they occur while I'm feeling calm and rational...



The cognitive distortions of suicidal thinking can be very convincing because, as with psychosis, there is usually a lack of insight.  If you were truly thinking rationally, you would be able to label the various types of cognitive distortions that are contributing to the suicidal thoughts, such as all-or-nothing thinking.



gooblax said:


> But I dunno, it just seems to form an indisputable barrier, convinced of it's own rationality.



Exactly:



> The logic of suicide is, then, not rational...It is like the unanswerable logic of a nightmare, or like the science-fiction fantasy of being projected suddenly into another dimension: everything makes sense and follows its own strict rules; yet, at the same time, everything is also different, perverted, upside-down. Once a man decides to take his own life he enters a shut-off, impregnable but wholly convincing world where every detail fits and each incident reinforces his decision.  An argument with a stranger in a bar, an expected letter which doesn't arrive, the wrong voice on the telephone, the wrong knock at the door, even a change in the weather -- all seem charged with special meaning; they all contribute.
> 
> The Savage God: A Study of Suicide - Google Book Search



Such constriction of focus in suicidal thinking is more commonly referred to as "tunnel vision" and, less commonly, as the "suicidal trance."


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## gooblax

Thanks Mari and Daniel.


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## HBShadow

Hello -

I was wondering if people can ever be completely "cured" of suicidal urges.  Suicidal people seem to have these same urges over many years and I wonder if they just go dormant with therapy and medication, but given the right set of circumstances they are always lying there to resurface - sort of like part of your genetic makeup that will forever be a part of you.  If you are predisposed to suicidal thoughts, can you ever fully recover?

Thank you,
HBShadow

PS This is a great forum with a wealth of information for its members!


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## Into The Light

great question hbshadow. i suspect given the "right" set of circumstances we would revert back to that state. however, once a person has been there and has gotten out of that state it is a good idea to look at what factors led them to becoming suicidal, and then to look at how they can prevent the same set or a similar set of circumstances from happening again.

my therapist showed me how everything lined up for me to end up in a suicidal crisis state, and that by identifying that certain set of "steps" we can now be on the watch for them. should any of those steps in that direction occur i can take corrective action. knowing all the factors that contributed to what happened to me, i feel fairly confident that i'll be okay and that things will never be that bad for me again that i end up back in that danger zone.


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## HBShadow

When people indicate they are feeling suicidal, the recommended response is always to:

a) have their doctor adjust their medication, and 

b) let their therapist know they are having more difficulty than usual/ask for an extra appointment.  

I understand the first response in that changes to medication start happening immediately (the positive effects thereof may not be "felt" immediately, but the drugs do start acting internally immediately).  But if a person is already in therapy, I do not know how contacting their therapist provides any added benefit...therapy is a gradual process.  Letting a therapist know you are struggling more than normal does not resolve the problems making a person suicidal - it does not speed up the process of resolving those problems.  Is it just for the "venting" factor that people recommend contacting the therapist?  Or perhaps the purpose of that response is just so the therapist can make sure the person is physically safe (in which case then, it stands to reason if a person is physically safe, there would be no benefit in contacting the therapist)?  Just curious about the logic behind this.  Thanks for any comments you might have.


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## Retired

Shadow,
People who might be suicidal are likely to give off signals or clues about their suicidal thoughts. Unfortunately many people find it difficult  to follow up on these signals and fail to engage the suicidal person in a conversation about their thoughts.  If left alone without intervention, a person with suicidal thoughts has a greater liklihood of carrying out the plan.

It is generally not recommended for an untrained person to do more than provide immediate support to keep the suicidal person safe, and to do everything possible to get in contact with a trained mental health professional to come to the aid of the that person.  The best we can do is suicide first aid, which is to let the person know they are not alone, keep the person safe by removing any immediate threat of the plan being completed, and get the person to professional help such as the family doctor, the person's therapist, the local emergency department or if the person is in imminent danger of completing their plan, to call 911.

The local crisis line can also be a helpful resource if all the other resources are not immediately available.

Medication change may or may not be the answer, until the issues and the reason for the suicidal thoughts are understood; but the most immediate intrervention is to keep the person safe and to get them to a trained health professional.


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## forgetmenot

It is allowing your doctor to know where your mind set is and if he or she may need to bring you in earlier for an appointment or maybe ask you to go to hospital for help  I think calling your therapist is just allowing them to help you if they can more quickly and to give you some coping skills until the suicidal thoughts leave if you are in crisis.


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